Oily water/watery oil in air filter

[JRGC94]

Hi guys
i've noticed in my galant that there is water building up in the air filter base, it seems to be coming up though the tappet cover air breather hose (pcv valve?), I noticed it first on the 18th of this month, I cleaned the tappet cover, air breather hose & valve, air filter base. I checked it this afternoon, noticing that the water had built back up again. I have no idea where or what the problem could be. The oil in the sump is clean and so is the water, but it is still using water, it's lost about 1.5ltrs in the past 4days. The motor is a 4g32, completely stock, does anyone have any ideas?

thanks
Tom

[crystalmeths]

could be a head gasket

[geezer101]

This is a weird one. I'd pull the plugs out and see if any of them are scoured clean from carbon - this is a dead give away of a blown head gasket and water/coolant venting into the combustion chamber. Next is a visit to a workshop for a cooling system pressure test. The strange thing is that you haven't seen any cross contamination of oil and water, plus the water in the air filter (and the amount of water you're losing in a short period of time). Never heard of anything like it...

[shuggy]

Carby gasket leaking water?

[geezer101]

Carby gasket leaking water?

Water is going the wrong way for it to be leaking from the base gasket and it would have to be a monolithic leak to lose over a litre in 4 days. The old bakerlite base gaskets are prone to cracking and then leaking coolant/air (and it is difficult to locate the source until the carby has been removed) but it's the water pooling in the air filter that has got me beat. When you finally get the issue diagnosed do tell us what it was JRGC94, so we can put it in the x-files for future reference!

[davetrees]

If it's ending up in the aircleaner, it would just about have to be coming out the breather hose at the front of the rocker cover (assuming it is still plumbed to the aircleaner as per stock arrangement) ?

One way to tell for sure would be to disconnect that breather hose from the aircleaner and route it into a plastic bottle/catchcan arrangement .... at least it might narrow down where it's coming from.

Could another possibility be the water bypass hose runs into the bottom of the inlet manifold to heat it ? Maybe a crack in the manifold is letting water into the intake side ? That would explain no oil/water mixing. If so, you would expect to have some steam coming out the exhaust ....

[A112H]

Could another possibility be the water bypass hose runs into the bottom of the inlet manifold to heat it ? Maybe a crack in the manifold is letting water into the intake side ? That would explain no oil/water mixing. If so, you would expect to have some steam coming out the exhaust ....

This is where I would be placing my bet.

[bruggz351]

Hope its ya manifold.
On my Jeep it was a cracked head. There was no cross contamination and the only way we could diagnose it with out taking the head off was a pressure test HOT. It would hold good pressure cold but leak down hot.
Was obvious once the head was off.
cheers

[crystalmeths]

give it a compression test that will tell you if it is the head gasket , and the oil and water doesnt have to mix to have a blown head gasket , have had it happen on my sigma very strange .

[Turbo047]

Yep compression test - but you are going to find either a head gasket or cracked head. Sorry but that's the way she goes.

[bruggz351]

I didn't have access to a compression tester, so, we used a radiator leak down tester.

JFYI

[JRGC94]

Hey guys
thanks for the replies. We suspected it being the head gasket, so we changed that over on the weekend. after about 80kms of driving there doesn't seem to be any build up of oily water/ watery oil. with the head gasket we changed the oil and filter also. Fingers crossed that we got it early and i dont have bigger problems.

One other thing i noticed while driving those 80k's, it that is doesn't seem to take off very nicely it hs chokes, drives, chokes, drive, its hard to explain, from take off its sounds sorta like PPPPP.....(nothing).......PPPPPP...............PPPPPPP............PPPPPPP, then sort of goes into a smoothness of sorts, but i can still hear it almost missing a stroke/not firing on one cylinder sometimes. it also doesn't like starting after its gotten hot, it seems to have a fuel stravation issue, it has a new fuel pump but i still dont know what could be wrong with it. The car is booked in for a tune and inspection next monday, hopefully they can help sort my engine issues.

Thanks
Tom

[75wagon]

Just curious Tom, what condition was the rear water ports in the head behind No.4 cylinder like (rear of motor), it's common for them to corrode. When they corrode, the coolant then attacks the metal ring around No.4 cylinder in the head gasket.

One other thing i noticed while driving those 80k's, it that is doesn't seem to take off very nicely it hs chokes, drives, chokes, drive, its hard to explain, from take off its sounds sorta like PPPPP.....(nothing).......PPPPPP...............PPPPPPP............PPPPPPP, then sort of goes into a smoothness of sorts, but i can still hear it almost missing a stroke/not firing on one cylinder sometimes.

It could be a vacuum leak. Which means maybe your intake manifold is not sealing properly, allowing air to be sucked into the cylinder, thus creating poor running, low power, and missing.

[JRGC94]

75wagon, you knew before i even uploaded the photos, i figure that this is where my problems were.





the damage to the gasket.





Where could the intake manifold leak be you say? the manifold is done up to the correct torque setting, or is it a vacumn hose you think could be leaking?

[75wagon]

Where could the intake manifold leak be you say? the manifold is done up to the correct torque setting, or is it a vacumn hose you think could be leaking?

Could be anywhere.
Did you use sealant on the gasket, or leave it dry?

It could be the carby base gasket? Along those lines, it is also common for the carby base gasket to leak coolant into the intake if it's and old gasket or the seal has been broken (generally by loose nuts, it's pretty common for them to shake themselves loose over time).

[JRGC94]

The intake gasket is the one that was on the secondhand motor when we got it, i dont know if it has sealant on it. We replaced the base carby gasket. The car is booked in at the tuners for monday, so he'll tune it up timing, etc etc, he'll also look at my fuel stravation issue, he said that the solex mikuni common warp aswell, so he will check the carby over and see if it needs a rebuild.

what sealant can you use to seal an intake manifold gasket, we used a gasket goo, on the thermostat housing, i've heard of people using almost like a hi temp silicone to seal up head gaskets, is there any truth to this?

Thanks
Tom

[75wagon]

I use hylomar, for paper gaskets, and I also use it for headgaskets (even the monotorque style ones), a bit more stick can never hurt in my opinion.

he said that the solex mikuni common warp aswell, so he will check the carby over and see if it needs a rebuild.

I've never heard of this, or had the problem myself (I've owned these types of cars since 1993), all have mine have been fitted with twin carbs, so by this guys rule, I should have twice the trouble. I've never had a problem with my carbs.

Here's a carb kit on ebay http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Carb-kit-for ... 3290wt_906 I have checked the numbers, it's the right one.

Here's proof

From this topic http://www.sigma-galant.com/viewtopic.php?f=93&t=2655

I have found that over a counter in a parts store, that these carb kits sell for over $65 a kit. When you're buying 2 (for twins obviously) it gets a bit pricey.

[JRGC94]

well the bloke i spoke to said he's rebuild plenty of these carbs in his time, not all on galants but still. He said the warping in carbys is quite common, not just in the solex mikuni, but older carbys in general. He went on to say that he put carby kits throught carbys at owners request, but without zeroing the decks, (owners didnt want to pay the excess) & he said most of them came back complaining of no difference, after machining it made a huge difference.

but i'll see what happens on monday.

Another question is, have you ever fuel stravation on the car is hot, i drove it from work to the shops (about 20kms) turned the car off did my thing, came back and it started but died, i pull the fuel lines on blew through the fuel pump each way, sucked fuel up from the tank, blew it in the fuel pump, this carried on for about 30mins, attempting to start it after i blew through the lines, finally i was almost ready to give up, and it started. any ideas?

Cheers
Tom

[geezer101]

Yeah, it's funny that nobody actually realises that the carbies can twist all over the place - and they do, especially if they've been on an engine that has over heated. I found near 0.5mm difference in levels from corner to corner on the throttle butterfly body on one I've been playing with and high and low spots on the top face of the carby body casting. Only problem is most workshops don't have a mill small enough to handle decking the faces on a carby (and if they do it will cost you...). Anyway, to me your start problem sounded like a jammed fuel needle. Had enough fuel in the carby to start initially but starved soon after and maybe whatever had caused the needle to jam moved on. If it does it again, take off your air filter and give the area above the fuel bowl on the carby a few light taps and see if that frees up the fuel delivery. If it's doing this it is time to pull it apart and inspect/rebuild.

[75wagon]

Another question is, have you ever fuel stravation on the car is hot

The only starvation problem I've had was a faulty pump.
I'd be looking at the fuel pump. I be checking that it has good pressure. When they get old they don't pump as well as they should do.
I'd also be checking the basics, like float height in the carby, needle and seat operation, and I'd also be cleaning the filter that's in the top plate of the carb where the fuel line from the pump attaches.

Dave...

[davetrees]

You shouldn't need to use any sealant on the intake manifold (other than around the square water port, as directed in the workshop manual) provided the manifold & head faces are flat & true.

Using second-hand gaskets is always a potential source of leaks though .... gaskets are cheap, so why skimp on them ? Just use a new one.

Easiest way to tell if you have a vacuum leak is to buy a can or Aerostart (or "StartYaBastard", or similar) and spray it along the manifold join, carb mounting, etc while the engine is running. If the revs increase, it's sucking air.

Stock fuel system is prone to vapourisation problems - either by heat transfer from head to fuel pump, &/or fuel line to carb being close to the top radiator hose). Best fix is to go an electric pump. At the very least, insulate the fuel line (I used some foam rubber tube like they use on hot water service pipes).

[JRGC94]

fuel pump is new, head gasket is new, (seems to have fixed the problem) all fuel lines in the engine bay are new. i'll wait and see what the pro says on monday, i'd rather him pull it apart. i've heard of the needle jamming (common problem on my HK holden ute) never thought about the heat transfer though, might insulate it & see if that makes a difference, trying to resist from modernizing the car, so i'm going to stick with the mechanical fuel pump, will try some startyabastard if i continue having problem after monday.

Thanks
Tom

[75wagon]

Stock fuel system is prone to vapourisation problems - either by heat transfer from head to fuel pump, &/or fuel line to carb being close to the top radiator hose). Best fix is to go an electric pump. At the very least, insulate the fuel line (I used some foam rubber tube like they use on hot water service pipes).

I've never had a problem with vapourisation, maybe I've just been lucky
If it's a street driven car, that is used for the purpose it was created for, I can't see this scenario ever being a problem. If it's a race car, that pushes everything to it's limits, well, that might be a different story.
I've never understood using an electric fuel pump on an otherwise stock car. The standard pumps are fool proof, and reliable as. To me the electronic fuel pump is just something that is more then likely going to fail (and be noisy while waiting for that to happen). I suppose it's a bit like thermo fans for me, why change something that works, to something that will surely fail on you, and cost you a tow, or worse still, a blown or buggered motor.

I did think of something this morning though, did the car run fine before you discovered that you had a blown head gasket? If it doesn't run fine now, it's a good chance that it's something you have done to it (or not done to it as the case may be).
If it ran fine before, and you didn't drive it till the temp gauge was off it's scale, then I doubt it's a carb warping problem?

[JRGC94]

its a daily, has never over heated, it was running pretty good apart from the fuel consumption issue, but i do remember driving home from work, thinking/feeling it sounded like it was a bit lumpy when running, may of been when the gasket blew? the only thing i've done with the car is change oil, add water, and fuel, i fiddled with the mixture screw to trying lean it off, first setting it at what the service manual says, then driving it on that tank of fuel, then adjusting, and run on that tank of fuel etc etc, but surely this couldn't cause the needle to stick because it was running still. i dont know, the old motor setup (the same as the new motor) ran quite well when i first had it (but didn't do ltrs per 100km maths so not sure on the figures) it used to get 386kms to the tank (like to the bottom, dry as a bone (40ltr tank) then my father thought it needed to be richened up for winter so it started easier, wish he didn't muck with the needle, through any type of fuel economy out the window! After that, both motors did/do about 11 to 12ltrs per 100km, there was one trip to the coast where it did a low 9 per 100kms, but that was highway driving. what do others get per 100kms? would like to know, its just should use that much fuel, i think?

[75wagon]

The mixture screw only alters the mixture at idle speeds, so I doubt that's affecting fuel consumption.

A stock 4G32 should get 7 to 9 litres to 100kms. Even my wagon (with the No.5 cam, lower ratio diif and twin carbs get's between 10 to 13 litres to 100kms).

A Galant wagon has a 38 litre tank, not a 40.

Did you line up the timing markers when changing the head gasket?

Dave...

[JRGC94]

7-9ltrs! FARK, i average aout 11.5ltrs per 100km. No.5 cam? is it a lumpy towing cam or something what kind of duration on it, what are the intake and exhaust opening degrees? how did you get different diff gears? what ratio is it now? would love a low ratio set for mine! 38ltrs? i swear the service manual says 40 ltrs for the station wagon and 50 something for the sedans. What ways can i quickly improve my fuel comsumption? can i remove the charcoal canister? Would the motor being chain driven over the new belt driven cam differ in it anyways? does anyone know it you can still get a timing chain tensioner kit? seems to be near impossible to find!

[A112H]

My manual says 43lts wagon and 55lts sedan and hardtop

[75wagon]

No.5 cam? is it a lumpy towing cam or something what kind of duration on it, what are the intake and exhaust opening degrees?

There are 3 Mitsubishi spec high performance cams 3, 4 and 5. The number 5 has lubes that have lobes that are approximately twice the width without higher lift (judged by visual, not measured), and no sorry, I don't know the actual specs.

how did you get different diff gears?

I bought another diff centre from a wreckers out of a GA auto sedan years ago, I can't remember what the ratio was (too long ago), but take off is pretty ordinary, but highway cruising speed (110kms) the tacho sits at approx 3200rpm in 5th.

38ltrs? i swear the service manual says 40 ltrs for the station wagon and 50 something for the sedans

My manual says 43lts wagon and 55lts sedan and hardtop

Well there you go, it proves I didn't bother reading it.

Would the motor being chain driven over the new belt driven cam differ in it anyways?

The belt drives run a higher compression about 9.5:1 compared to 8.5:1 in a chain drive.

What ways can i quickly improve my fuel comsumption?

Don't drive it as hard.
I bought a manual GC wagon years ago, that used to return constant 7 litres to 100kms. I plan to put that same motor into my wagon soon, as it had been rebuilt not long before I bought it.

does anyone know it you can still get a timing chain tensioner kit? seems to be near impossible to find!

Check US ebay, search Dodge Colt, Plymouth Arrow and Plymouth Cricket.

Dave...

[JRGC94]

Well!
the car has been to the tuners and come back pretty good! timing set, coil rewired (was negative on postive and vice versa) he ran down over the carby, and suggest a rebuild will be needed soon, which will happen soon. still having troubles starting after it been driven, have noticed after 3-4 mins after being driven, fuel leaking from the fuel bowl into the carby chambers. i believe the needle and seat is stuff causing it to not hold pressure and leak, sound about right?

the car is an automatic so i expect fuel economy to be down over a manual. diff ratio is 3.889 according to the service manual.

Thanks
Tom