If I lowered the wagon?

[75wagon]

The guy at Dumbrells said the coils, even if they are reset will still be stiffer than what I would have now. After all, we are talking about springs that are 35 years old. I like the way the car rides now and if possible would like to retain the ride as much as possible...

I may change my mind after gaPhils suspension is done, which is happening soon
I have never lowered a car before so I've never had a before and after drive to see the difference.
Phil's will be the first.

I doubt very much the wagon will have anything done to it before the cruise on the 14th Feb. So I've still got plenty of time... to think.

[C_Fernance]

If your getting the rear springs reset i may get my set done at the same time. That way I only have to put them in the wagon once rather than swapping things around after i get it on the road.

As for the rims I had Chris at Promac engineering in Cardiff widen mine around 4 years ago. I supplied a set of sigma steelies, and the new outers in the width i wanted. Went back the next day after they had been tacked together to check the offset, clearance, etc. Another day later and they were finished. Cost about $80 each wheel, and the new outers were a similar price from Argy tyres. Chris can use secondhand outers off wheels you supply, but it costs extra as it is more work for him.

[astronturbo77]

im sorry mate but i disagree with what your thinking of doing. reset springs are illegal, well in tas they are. steel becomes brittle and snapes no matter what some people tell you even if they have been retempered. read back trough my posts on this subject mate, ive lowered many cars before and made them handle.

if it was mine mate it would have lowered front springs with short shock inserts, 24mm front sway bar, lengthened lca's adjustable strut tops and rose jointed castor bars. the rear i would have a sway bar, short stroke shockies, standard galant leafs with one flipped leaf. low profile tyres also. this may be a bit to extreme for a road car but its a heap of fun.

[astronturbo77]

also just read back through this thread, mate you wont have guard clearance issues, i had my old gd wag lowered 35mm all round with 17's on it man, and i definatley could have gone another 15mm easily without issues!

[75wagon]

Was riding my bike home today and Dumbrells spring was open so I stopped in.
To reset the rear leaves $133 + GST
To reset the front coils $75 + GST

Was just talking to Dan tonite, he wants to know if the prices are per spring or for the pair? I didn't ask.


Everyone who has seen the car and looked at it, doesn't think I can lower it with the wheels tyres that are fitted to it.

im sorry mate but i disagree with what your thinking of doing. reset springs are illegal, well in tas they are.

I'll have to look into this.
I was trying to avoid lowering blocks because they are illegal. I thought this would have been the way to go. But now you've got me wondering

if it was mine mate it would have lowered front springs with short shock inserts, 24mm front sway bar, lengthened lca's adjustable strut tops and rose jointed castor bars. the rear i would have a sway bar, short stroke shockies, standard galant leafs with one flipped leaf. low profile tyres also. this may be a bit to extreme for a road car but its a heap of fun.

I was really trying to avoid this sort of expense, if you drove the car and saw how it went you would see why. It wouldn't pull a greasy stick out of a dogs bum...

[astronturbo77]

try flipping a leaf on your existing spring pack mate. if you dont like it you can always just remove it. it makes them lower and very stiff, stops body roll and helps keeps the rear end flat. i had loweing blocks in a wagon and didnt really like them. i wouldnt be paying 160 for kings fronts as that is retail. they should be around 135.

[gaPhil]

I was trying to avoid lowering blocks because they are illegal. I thought this would have been the way to go. But now you've got me wondering

I was lookin into this and I dont think its illegal for lowering blocks unless they're crazy big, like over 4 inch.....Ive known people to stack them in mini trucks and so fourth. I bought 2inch ones and as far as I know they're legal


As for flipping one leaf in the rear, it seems like a good way to go but not very accurate. From what Ive seen from other cars it can sometimes turn out massively low or too close to stock height.

I think no matter what you do ride quality is going to be reduced by lowering it

[75wagon]

75wagon wrote:
I was trying to avoid lowering blocks because they are illegal. I thought this would have been the way to go. But now you've got me wondering



I was lookin into this and I dont think its illegal for lowering blocks unless they're crazy big, like over 4 inch.....Ive known people to stack them in mini trucks and so fourth. I bought 2inch ones and as far as I know they're legal

I've seen heaps of cars with them in. And for years I've had people tell me they are illegal. But it might be like Workcover laws that become a bit more like urban myths. A rumour gets out there that something is illegal and just spreads like wildfire. To be honest Phil, I have never seen it in writing that lowering blocks are illegal.
I drove the wagon to work yesterday and stopped in to see Laurie from Kotara Auto Services (it's Laurie and his son that own the Yellow GB racer that there are pics of on this site).
Laurie looked at my car and said I will have problems lowering the car with the wheels that are on it, but if I lip/ clearance the guards he thinks it should be ok. He assures me that reset springs are not illegal. So that gives me back some confidence about taking that path.
I suppose the main reason I don't want to go the path of lowering blocks is you can see them, if the leaves are reset it will look like it could be standard, I prefer things to look like they could have come out of the factory.

As for flipping one leaf in the rear, it seems like a good way to go but not very accurate. From what Ive seen from other cars it can sometimes turn out massively low or too close to stock height.

I don't want to flip any of the leaves in the pack. I read the link that burabuda posted early in this discussion and from the findings of the blokes in that discussion, flipping the leaves makes them really stiff and hard riding. I don't want that.
I think that getting my standard springs re-sprung and reset, will keep as close to the ride comfort that I have now, but I may have to replace the shocks with shorter ones, so they are operating as they are designed to. I don't want it to bounce or be hard as a rock if I can avoid it.

I've got a little bit of time to look into this because I have no money for this sort of thing ATM (have to rego my bike this week), so it's not going to happen tomorrow. I just like to carefully consider things before I do them and way up my options. You guys have been a great help in helping me on this one. Thanks very much.

Does anyone have any reason why I should not take the path of resetting standard springs? Remember: I want a cruiser not a racer so I don't want it hard...

Dave...

[tandanus]

Thre are too many stories out there of reset coils prings that have sagged unevenly or broken for me to ever recommend that. But I'm happy to throw it out there - "Has anyone ever been happy with their reset coil springs?"
T.

[HoonBoy]

Yep, had it done before (springs were not available for the car at the rime) and it worked well (apart from the tyres then rubbing on the guards )

[tandanus]

Which I guess means that you should get them done by someone who knows what they are doing (or buy new ones if you can get the specs you want). For those of you who are new to the site - if HoonBoy says it, its true; if I say it, its just agreed wisdom
T.

[81GL]

if HoonBoy says it, its true; if I say it, its just agreed wisdom
T.

Sounds like wisdom to me...

[75wagon]

I came to a point where I have given up on this idea, at least for now.
Since I last commented on this topic, gaPhil and I have put lowered springs into his GA sedan, along with new KYB strut inserts (this is the first time I have had anything to do with lowering a car).

What we found was the lowered springs were not trapped by the struts and the car sat at only 10mm lower then the height it was to start. It handled better and was firmer in the front.
So I will now ask this question:
Won't putting shorter travel strut inserts have more effect on lowering a car then lowered springs (being that shorter travel strut inserts actually limit how far the strut travels)? So therefore, why put lowered springs in a car at all when you could just put shorter travel strut inserts and get the same effect?

Dave...

[tandanus]

That'd be too easy
If your car sat (at rest) with the strut inserts fully extended, then yep, shortening the struts (eg) 40mm) would drop the car 40mm. But it doesnt (I hope), so that wont work. The problem is that the car sits on the springs. If you shorten the springs they may end up not being captured at full extension (as youve found). To capture them you need to shorten the strut inserts. Of course you could just get softer springs
T.

[astronturbo77]

shorter inserts wont make a lower car. unless the springs are coil bound to get the strut top on. remember shock inserts and shock absorbers don't carry any weight.

but if you have short stroke inserts and shortened strut tubes this will lower your car but give you the same amount of suspension travel up and down but the car will be lower

[75wagon]

I'm trying to understand why (sorry I'm a noob to this stuff)
I'm talking front struts only here:
I'm not suggesting the shock takes the weight of the car.
If the shock shaft is shorter, it can't let the spring return to it's ordinary height. Thus the car would have to sit lower. How could it sit back at ordinary height?

Dave...

[bigbird]

didn you ever drive nickos galant wagon that thing was low. i remember he turned the rear leafs upside down but then couldn fit the wheel in the arch 2 bolt it up.
common dave lower it

[75wagon]

No, I never drove Nicko's wagon.
That sat way to low for me. I like to get over small rocks and twigs

[bigbird]

lol

[tandanus]

"I'm not suggesting the shock takes the weight of the car.
If the shock shaft is shorter, it can't let the spring return to it's ordinary height. Thus the car would have to sit lower. How could it sit back at ordinary height?"
I'll try again...
For your car to be lower the axle has to be closer to the guard lip.
The only time the shock shaft affects how far the axle is from the guard lip is when the shock is at full extension.
The only time this happens is when your wheel is airborne. (or if you had springs that were so strong that the shock shaft was permanently at full extension).
If you jack the car up then let it down while looking at the shock shaft youll see that the shaft goes about a third (?) of the way down into the strut until the jack moves away from the car and the car is at rest on its wheels.
The shock shaft is wherever the spring tells it to be: somewhere along its range of motion - depending on the load and spring characteristics.
If your shock shaft was SO SHORT that the car rested with the shaft at full extension, then yes, shortening the shaft further would lower the car.
Here endeth the epistle
T.

[75wagon]

That makes sense.
Thanx...

[pistorf]

Dave,I wouldn't lower it too much..the ride quality will go out the window. My XD ESP that I had was fitted with Bilstiens front and rear,Selby Front coils and Phase 3 rear leafs and was only 50mm lower than factory. It rode like an absolute bag of crap (although it handled like a race car). My GA on the other hand had wagon rears,Selby fronts,Tokico gas shocks and strut inserts,LA Lancer lower control arms and a standard front bar with the same rims that you are running. It sat around 40mm higher than standard (rally car). It rode like a dream and went round corners like they weren't there.
I used to play a little game of changing the advisory speed on bends from KPH to MPH

[DanTurboLancer]

The theory of what you are suggesting is correct Dave, limit the amount the Spring will travel, by reducing its available travel height.

However you also have to take into account The Sprung steel design of the Springs, are designed to also work to help the ride in a compression and rebound handling manner, aswell as hold the weight of the car.
You may notice the higher a spring (Stock height), the thinner the spring usually is.
As you goto a shorter spring (lowered), the Spring gets Thicker.
What usually results is a stiffer reaction from the lowered spring, but that is simply to counter-act the reduced distance the spring now has to work in.

Longer spring - longer distance to do its job - much more comfortable ride.

So if you were to purposely limit the spring Normal operating height (stock Spring), by using a shorter stroke shock,
I would assume it may ride even Worse than a properly lowered spring.
As the properly lowered spring while stiffer, does still allow for some softer spring reaction,
that increases stiffness as it has load is applied.
Where as the Factory spring that has been forced down, will already be well on its way to its harder reaction position,
so it wont have the initial softer comfortable action.



3 years of TAFE Mechanical Engineering for that dribble LOL

Im open to critisism, its just a theory haha

[shuggy]

congrats man, you know ur stuff