If I lowered the wagon?

[75wagon]

Just after some advice here really.
I want to lower it, but I need to work out what needs to be done and what it's going to cost me.
I think I could lower the wagon a bit but if I did the suspension would have to harden up a bit because the wheels hit the guards because of body roll. I can't go super low because the wheel track is 6 inches wider than standard.

So the questions are these:
What is currently available in springs/ shocks? (I'm currently running Monroe Gas shocks all round, and standard springs)
If I lower it will there be enough adjustment in the front end to return the original geometry settings? (I like my tires to wear evenly, cause they do now)
Are lowering blocks a good idea (are they legal)?
I know about resetting the rear leaves, but I've also heard about reversing some of the leaves? (does that mean turning one of them upside down?) What are the benefits of this?

I have never lowered a car before.
I value ride quality (I'm probably going to lose some of that if I lower it), but I don't want it to bounce all over the place like you see on some other cars that are lowered (I believe that is caused by cutting the springs, also by unmatched spring/ shock rates).
I am not changing my wheels (not in the short term anyway).
I don't want to change the shape of the wheel arches, because I want to leave the arch molds on the car.

As you can see in this pic, it needs to be dropped a fair way down to look better. But you'll also see how much further my wheels stick out the guards then the wheels on 77galantv6's car.


Any help or advice, will be appreciated. I really have no idea what I'm doing here, but remember, it's not a race car, only a cruiser.

Dave...

[A57C]

dave, here are my thoughts as i've recently finished the suspension upgrades on my car:

front: i'd advise shortening the strut housings to accommodate shorter inserts. that will give you instant lowering without risking bottoming out or loss of suspension travel (no bouncing). but if you cannot abide coil-overs then use some king springs or something. either way, you should shorten the strut height. btw, the lower you go in front the more negative camber you'll get, so some tyre wear is inevitable. positive note is more wheel/tyre clearance against the guard lip. camber plates will allow you to dial out negative camber. btw, my car has camber plates but they're set at nil, because i like some negative camber. shock inserts should be performance and if you copy what i did, i can tell you what applications (shocks that originally came on different make/model) will work

rear: simply flatten the leafs but add no extra leafs. will be stiff enough for street cruising (you're not going to drag race the car right?) ride height should be just fine. my car has a bit of a rake. if you still need to go lower, get those 1" lowering blocks from ebay. i wouldn't go any more than that. as for rear shocks, don't go too stiff or you'll regret it. last, and i think you already know this, you're going to need to shorten your axles, at least back to the stock measurement

[77galantv6]

Dave,
whether this helps or not, mine is running;
front - the sigma front struts with lowered king springs
rear - reset wagon leafs with a one inch lowering block

mine tucks a bit of tyre in the rear and the front arch is just at the top of the tyre
(although my tyres dont stick out as wide as yours....)
the ride comfort is still fairly comfortable (i am used to very low cars though....)
and the fronts only have a little camber
(like burabuda said, i like a bit of camber - i think it helps in cornering,
but thats just my thoughts)

in your car i think all you would need to come down would
be an inch or 1.5 in the front and maybe 2 in the rear
that would make the arch's sit just above the tryres
and then with the stiffer suspension, you shouldn't be scrubbing out

[tandanus]

Pretty much as above ^^
To lower the front 30-35mm from stock use King Lows. To get an extra 5mm lower than that use Lovells Lows. Lovells will need shorter inserts to capture the spring (Camira?) with spacers under them or shortened strut, and they are damned stiff for road use. Camber - yes you will get more negative camber. Adjustable strut tops wont help much with standard struts 'cos there's no room under there for them to move. Coil overs with narrow springs will give more adjustment but you might end up with the wheel hitting the arch. If youre going to get the strut shortened get them to bend it to the right camber for you at the same time - the degrees are on the site somewhere. Back - 6" over track is too much - fix it. To lower the back - wagon springs are pretty strong so just have them reset.
I'd say - put King Lows in the front and see if the springs still capture. Reset the rear leafs.
T.

[75wagon]

6" over track is too much - fix it.

The only way I can fix is is to have the diff housing shortened. The wheels are just bolted on no spacers.

Adjustable strut tops wont help much with standard struts 'cos there's no room under there for them to move.

If I lower the front of my car and then use adjustable strut tops, the only way to correct too much negative camber is to stand the strut more vertical again (Correct?).
Wont this sit my wheels even further out, making the clearance problem worse?

Thanks for the ideas, I think my main problem is my wheels, without flaring the guards I can't see how I can get a decent drop. I really like my wheels and don't really want to change them. I think if I only lowered the front an inch or so I would be ok (the front wheels rub on the firewall at full lock and on the wheel arch on hard cornering, so stiffer may fix that), and the back I may be able to clearance the guard a little bit.
I'm sick of looking at my car sitting like a 4 wheel drive.

I'll get you to have a look at it today Dean and see what you think...

Dave...

[A57C]

visualize this: negative camber means the tops of the tyres/wheels are tilted toward the strut tower, so when the suspension moves up in down, the tyres are pointing inwards giving you more guard lip clearance

if you change your mind and decide to shorten the axles, i suggest sourcing a different axle already equipped with lsd and disc brakes

re: your wheels ... perhaps a smaller size tyre for the stretched look?

[76gdwagon]

in my wagon i had 4 inch blocks in back and lowered kings in front got an
wheel alignment and was good (only if you dont like rear suspension lol)
BUMP STOP's

[75wagon]

re: your wheels ... perhaps a smaller size tyre for the stretched look?

I've thought of that. I don't mind the look they have in the Philippines, but on 6 inch rims it wouldn't be a good look.
I'm currently running 205 60 13's, they are almost new, and I get 55000km's out of them, so didn't want to change just yet.

visualize this: negative camber means the tops of the tyres/wheels are tilted toward the strut tower, so when the suspension moves up in down, the tyres are pointing inwards giving you more guard lip clearance

I use to race Radio Controlled cars and understand the concept, and how to set up for handling. What I was trying to say before, is that if I lower the car and increase the negative camber, then to correct (or return to near standard) with adjustable strut tops, then the strut top would have to be moved towards the outside of the car to make the wheel have less negative camber, or stand more upright. Wouldn't this bring the tire back closer to the wheel arch on the mudguard?
I don't want a lot of negative camber, and don't wont the car to scrub tires out. I haven't had a Galant that does this yet, they've always worn them evenly.

if you change your mind and decide to shorten the axles, i suggest sourcing a different axle already equipped with lsd and disc brakes

Didn't really want to go to that expense just to lower the car. I'd be more likely to buy new wheels before I took this path.

in my wagon i had 4 inch blocks in back and lowered kings in front got an
wheel alignment and was good (only if you dont like rear suspension lol)
BUMP STOP's

I like my kidneys , didn't want to go that far. Just enough so it doesn't look ghey anymore. Maybe 1 to 1 1/2 inches.


Dave...

[A57C]

yeah btw how smooth are your roads? ours aren't that good and they're getting worse
slammed jdm cars look sweet but you gotta remember that a lot of the roads in japan are mirror smooth

[tandanus]

The other way of fixing the negative camber is, rather than moving the strut top out, moving the strut bottom in. You can do this by going to adjustable control arms. I think some Lancers had eccentric inner mounts on the control arms to allow for this. They dont swap into Galants but you may be able to fashion something up.... You will need someone good at wheel allignment if you go this way because it affects the steering geometry.
T.

[HoonBoy]

Thanks for the ideas, I think my main problem is my wheels, without flaring the guards I can't see how I can get a decent drop. I really like my wheels and don't really want to change them. I think if I only lowered the front an inch or so I would be ok (the front wheels rub on the firewall at full lock and on the wheel arch on hard cornering, so stiffer may fix that), and the back I may be able to clearance the guard a little bit.

Sitffening up the suspension is not going to stop rubbing on lock, you either need to reduce the diameter of the tyres or move the wheels further in towards the car (reduce the scrub radius). If you don't want to do that you could increase the castor and hack up the front of the guard, but I doubt you would want to do that either. No matter what you do, lowering is only going to make it worse.

As for the rear end, whatever you do, don't "flatten" the leaves, get them reset lower with reversed eye springs so you still have the compliance in you suspension. Lowering blocks can acheive the same thing with less hassle and will be fine for your car. High powered cars are different as it increases the tendency for axle windup, I don't see you having that problem

[astronturbo77]

simple mate, ive lowered heaps of galants over the years. lowering it wont stuff up your steering geometry if you dont go super low. just put king spring 'lows' in the front, they are about 30-35 mm lower so you wont have wheel to tyre issues. in the back i would suggest getting the leafs reset, dont flip a leaf if you value ride quality as they ride uber stiff and this is what the 'skid boys' do so the back end steps out . i reckon lowering blocks are a waste of time and illegal, they promote sevear axel tramp. also put a big front anti roll bar in it. enjoy

[shuggy]

yeh +1 on astronturbo77

[A57C]

i had a flashback to a few years ago on the datsun 1200 forum
a thread on leaf spring mods, everybody had an opinion and things got a bit ugly

http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/vie ... =0&start=0

[shuggy]

hahah love it

[astronturbo77]

dont get me wrong flipping a leaf ontop of the spring pack is a great idea, IF you want it to handle like a gokart, loose ride quality etc. but i know alot of people like myslef have done it, along with a weldie, it makes for great fun and a really stiff ride, but lets just say thats better left for the race track. i think dave is after my first more sensible suggestion

[75wagon]

i had a flashback to a few years ago on the datsun 1200 forum
a thread on leaf spring mods, everybody had an opinion and things got a bit ugly

http://datsun1200.com/modules/newbb/vie ... =0&start=0

I just finished reading that link. Holy crap.

Sitffening up the suspension is not going to stop rubbing on lock, you either need to reduce the diameter of the tyres or move the wheels further in towards the car (reduce the scrub radius). If you don't want to do that you could increase the castor and hack up the front of the guard, but I doubt you would want to do that either. No matter what you do, lowering is only going to make it worse.

Yeah, I wasn't expecting the steering lock rubbing to change, I only mentioned it because I've told everyone it rubs on all 4 corners.

As for the rear end, whatever you do, don't "flatten" the leaves, get them reset lower with reversed eye springs so you still have the compliance in you suspension. Lowering blocks can acheive the same thing with less hassle and will be fine for your car. High powered cars are different as it increases the tendency for axle windup, I don't see you having that problem

If I used lowering blocks I wouldn't need to change my rear shocks, would I?
Yeah, I'm not sure about lowering blocks. Are they illegal? I know the laws have changed in NSW since July.

simple mate, ive lowered heaps of galants over the years. lowering it wont stuff up your steering geometry if you dont go super low. just put king spring 'lows' in the front, they are about 30-35 mm lower so you wont have wheel to tyre issues. in the back i would suggest getting the leafs reset, dont flip a leaf if you value ride quality as they ride uber stiff and this is what the 'skid boys' do so the back end steps out . i reckon lowering blocks are a waste of time and illegal, they promote sevear axel tramp. also put a big front anti roll bar in it. enjoy

astronturbo77, I like the sound of what you are talking about. Sounds like a good combo. What shocks should I run with this set-up? I've heard some shocks work better than others. The Monroes aren't old, but the rear is a bit firm and is unpredictable sideways, it'll just snap out for no reason. My old 120Y was awesome and I wish I had the balance that I had in that in the Wagon.

When it comes to why I want to lower my car, I just want to make it look cooler. I don't want to stuff it up and make it horrible to drive, and I don't want to go to the expense of setting it up like a race car either. The maximum I'd want to go is 2 inches lower, but probably only 1 1/2 inches. It's purely cosmetic.

Thanks for the replys all, I'll have to start getting some pricing.

Dave...

[77GDWAGON]

I had my wagon lowered about 20 years ago 1" front and rear. For the rear i had the leaves reset and koni shocks. The front i had new springs and strut inserts fitted. This made a huge difference to the handling. I then fitted the PWS alloys with 195/50/15 rubber. Never had a problem with tyres rubbing or fouling.

[75wagon]

77GDWAGON, is your car back on the road? Wasn't it out of rego? That's criminal, you've got such a tidy wagon, you should get it out and cruise in it

I still haven't got prices on anything yet, been busy this week, but it's still on the agenda...

Dave...

[astronturbo77]

go to bursons dave, front king springs lows are $135-140 a pair. if they start asking for $160 or over thats retail. tell them you want trade price! i wanna see your wag lowered should look neat.

[77GDWAGON]

77GDWAGON, is your car back on the road? Wasn't it out of rego? That's criminal, you've got such a tidy wagon, you should get it out and cruise in it

I still haven't got prices on anything yet, been busy this week, but it's still on the agenda...

Dave...

Those photos were taken 18 years ago hence the NSW rego. Hopefully will have it back on the road this year. Self employed builder, 3 kids , single income and mortagage doesnt leave much spare cash.

[A57C]

wow 18 years?
glad at least a few of us here who are older than 21

[75wagon]

I was thinking about pricing some custom made fronts, and reset rears from Dumbrells Springs. That way I can show them the car and the problems I may have with the wheel clearances. I was also thinking or pricing a thicker front sway bar ??? anyone got any idea on thickness??? I would get the spare set of rear springs I have reset, and keep the originals to put them back in if I ever need to.
How does this sound? (Probably expensive...) Does anyone have ideas on poundage for springs, that would be a good balance front and rear?

One more question. Does anyone have suggestions on what sort of shocks I should use? I have Monroe Gas in it now, I put them in 1 year before I took it off the road for 3 years, so that means they are 5 years old and I have done about 35000kms on them. They aren't stuffed, but I'm really unhappy with the balance that the wagon has. My old GB handled like it was on rails. You could hold it sideways around a corner and it was really entertaining to drive. The wagon is rubbish. If you try to hold it sideways in the wet, it starts ok and then just snaps out on me . It's such a bastard, no fun at all...
The GB use to have Tokico gas shocks they were excellent. Are these still available?
I was told the only thing available when I bought the shocks for the wagon were Monroe's. They aren't bad they're just not good...
I want a really nice total package if possible, Probably impossible....

Dave..

[75wagon]

77GDWAGON, is your car back on the road? Wasn't it out of rego? That's criminal, you've got such a tidy wagon, you should get it out and cruise in it

I still haven't got prices on anything yet, been busy this week, but it's still on the agenda...

Dave...

Those photos were taken 18 years ago hence the NSW rego. Hopefully will have it back on the road this year. Self employed builder, 3 kids , single income and mortagage doesnt leave much spare cash.

I know where you are coming from, I'm just a house painter/ signwriter that works for the Government, my wife works part time but earns bugger all. I am also the proud owner of a mortgage and it's just about to get bigger. I'm at a crossroads with the wagon which is why I'm asking a lot of questions and taking everything into consideration. I just don't want to lose sight of what I started. I just want a tidy cruiser that people look at and appreciate, it's never been about speed. Never ever. And it's certainly never been about throwing money at it, cos I just haven't got it. So every cent I spend must be well planned. Time I have, money I don't...

Dave...

[A57C]

shock inserts should be performance and if you copy what i did, i can tell you what applications (shocks that originally came on different make/model) will work

[75wagon]

front: i'd advise shortening the strut housings to accommodate shorter inserts. that will give you instant lowering without risking bottoming out or loss of suspension travel (no bouncing). but if you cannot abide coil-overs then use some king springs or something. either way, you should shorten the strut height.

I can't quite see the reason for shortening the strut, and as for coil overs, I just want to basically keep the standard set-up. I only want to drop it about 1 1/2inches... That's about 40mm

[75wagon]

burabuda, How about putting up a pic of your car so I can see how low it is?

[Sigmaproject]

You only need to shorten the strut if you use shorter inserts. With my wagon the Skyline/ Pintara insets in the front struts were 40mm shorter than Sigma inserts. So I had 40mm cut out of the strut tubes, just below the inset locknut. All this does is reduce the overall travel of the suspension, it doesnt lower it one bit. That is still controlled by the spring. But what is does is allow you to drop the front a lot further and still keep the springs captive.

Back to your wagon, I think you are on the right track by just dropping the front a little, and leaving the back as-is.
Give it that slight nose down look of the era.

[tandanus]

You only need to shorten the strut if you use shorter inserts. With my wagon the Skyline/ Pintara insets in the front struts were 40mm shorter than Sigma inserts. So I had 40mm cut out of the strut tubes, just below the inset locknut. All this does is reduce the overall travel of the suspension, it doesnt lower it one bit. That is still controlled by the spring. But what is does is allow you to drop the front a lot further and still keep the springs captive.

Could you get the same effect by putting 40mm of spacers under the insert? ie Is it the damper rod that's 40mm shorter? And do you know if Skyline/Pintara inserts fit Scorp struts? ie are Sigma and Scorp struts the sam diameter? (Not meaning to hijack - this may be useful for others who want to lower their Galants....)
T.

[75wagon]

I was wondering if spacers on top of the insert, so the whole insert sits lower in the strut (so it would be the same as shortening, without actually cutting anything)?