Pros/Cons removing balance shafts

[Rally_2.6LC]

Another advantage of forklift oil pump is spins at half the revs of the crank instead of double like a standard pump and still provides the same amount of oil needed.
Got one quoted the other day $231 from Mitsubishi forklift spare parts dealer if people were interested.

[rob440]

$231 from Mitsubishi forklift spare parts dealer if people were interested

whats the contact details of the forklift dealer?

[Rally_2.6LC]

9765 2000
MLA holdings
Ask for spare parts and then its an oil pump for 4G54 forklift engine.

I think they are in Wetherial Park (not sure of spelling) in Sydney, but one would assume they post out.


Cheers Matt

[rob440]

9765 2000

ok, I can see the website for this company. Is "9765 2000" the part number?
Presumably I need the chain too? Stealth, do you know if this pump is a straight bolt on? I know you said the stock pump is fine. I planned on changing the timing chain and oil pump while I was my motor was "open" when I remove the shafts.
When it was mentioned earlier about "block off all the oil feed to the balance shafts" is it not just the one bearing shell you get in the elimination kit?
http://www.sigma-galant.com/archive/mod ... opic&t=186

[Rallyant]

Make sure you order the pullys and chain AND gasket for it while your at it,
they normally have everthing but the pullys in stock, they take a week or so from Japan.

I dont know of any cast iron versions, all the canter and forklift pumps i have seen and own are alloy.

Good point rally 2.6, the lower rpm is a good thing,
many years ago i use to ring up and nag Ron from colt speed in syd, he said they use to get problems in there Hi RPM race cars wihen using sigma/magna pumps. they still had oil pressure and never knew what the problem was, so they ran an oil hose thru the car. He sais the std pumps start to cavitate over about 6500 engine RPM, thats 13000 pump rpm. He wouldnt tell me what pump they use instead, as they sell the kit for $800, but he siad it ran at close to half engine rpm, so im guessing its the canter pump. so now i can spin my motor to 8500rpm with the pump spinning at less that 5000rpm instead of 16000rpm


Yes the pump is a straight bolt on, as you can see in the pics of one of my motors.

I forgot to mention youll also need the tensioner for the forklift pump, i think its different to the sigma one?

[Rally_2.6LC]

Just a general note, Im not 100% sure that these forklift pumps and the race pumps that Ron Masing used to sell are the same (judging by the fact one is a race pump and one is a forklift pump I would say not) so just be warned if you go buying a forklift pump for racing and if it dies in the arse u will know y. If you really want to stay safe buy the race pump kit from Ron.


Cheers Matt

[Draff]

I have had the Balance shafts out of my motor for about 4 years now and it has been fine, there is slightly more vibration but its very minimal and you can only really notice it when you back off, one thing that i have had happen before though is a bolt was rattled loose from the outside casing my my alternator (was about 6 months old) at top end of the rev range and hit the fins, after replacing the alternator i loctited the bolts on the outside casing and no issues since.

I'm not real sure on the over all power increase from taking the balance shafts out but it generates power quicker than it use to as its allot more free revving, as for oil pumps i checked mine when i was doing the timing chain about a year ago and it all looked fine, no major wear, oil presser is still fine ect. and its been in there for some time.

Regards

Draff

[Billsy]

.0015 mains .002 max
.002/.003 rods
.005 crank float
.004/ .006 max rod side clearance
oil pump
rotor tip .004
rotor to cover .005
end float .003/.004
shaft to cover .002 max
and for the vavles .001/.003
this is what i run my engines at but always pay the money and have you bottom end
balanced by a pro who knows what the f--- he's doing
rather than the local shop that will just take your money
cheers stealth

thanks for that, my rods are .002
mains are all between .0015 and .002

[rob440]

hey guys thanks for all the info.
I think , given I have a stock motor I will remove the B/Shafts toss 'em out and leave my stock pump.

cheers
Rob

[Rally_2.6LC]

If your just going to have a stock motor, i have been advised to leave the balance shafts in. But removing them does make it rev more quickly/freely.

Draff, the point im trying to make is that the standard pump is fine on an engine which is why yours has lasted 4 years. Yes you can remove the balance shafts and keep the standard pump, however I plan on taking my engine past 6000, and this is where the standard pump cant supply enough oil, it starts to cavitate (unless like Stealth has said you prepare it properly and check all your clearances). Hence why I want the bigger pump (its a personal preference).

So Stealth I think im going to have to agree to disagree with you, yes the standard pump can be used if you take your engine to 7500 if you prep it properly that much I understand from you, however I'm going to now go with the high volume one to be safe.......


Cheers Matt

[stealth]

mate no worries at all its a personal preferance as most dont want to spend
extra thay just wanta do it on the cheap so either way
eg most people dont even balance there engine for the removal
good luck with your engine and keep us all posted
cheers stealth

[cheaterparts]

most people dont even balance there engine for the removal
good luck with your engine and keep us all posted
cheers stealth

but then the balance shafts dont effect the balance on the donk anyway !
I of cause would and do balance my engines that goes without saying

Yes you can remove the balance shafts and keep the standard pump, however I plan on taking my engine past 6000, and this is where the standard pump cant supply enough oil, it starts to cavitate (unless like Stealth has said you prepare it properly and check all your clearances). Hence why I want the bigger pump (its a personal preference).

So Stealth I think im going to have to agree to disagree with you, yes the standard pump can be used if you take your engine to 7500 if you prep it properly that much I understand from you, however I'm going to now go with the high volume one to be safe.......
Cheers Matt

Matt
just out of interest what other engine mods are you doing to be running up in the mid 7K range
the reason i ask is that atm the max power I have made was 119.5 Kw ( 160 hp ) atw @ 6100 and the only reason I run past 7 K is to save a gear change
making good power past 6000 to 6500 rpw will take some doing

with a std pump and no bearing issues to date


just a thought

[MrBishi]

The Coltspeed race pump and the Canter/Forklift pump are the same thing. I know because I bought one off Ron for the $800odd.

Does anyone else actually run one of these pumps? I'm having trouble with oil drainback on cold starts ie it won't build pressure for a couple of seconds (not great for the bearings).

[Torana68]

many years ago i use to ring up and nag Ron from colt speed in syd, he said they use to get problems in there Hi RPM race cars wihen using sigma/magna pumps. they still had oil pressure and never knew what the problem was, so they ran an oil hose thru the car. He sais the std pumps start to cavitate over about 6500 engine RPM, thats 13000 pump rpm. He wouldnt tell me what pump they use instead, as they sell the kit for $800, but he siad it ran at close to half engine rpm, so im guessing its the canter pump. so now i can spin my motor to 8500rpm with the pump spinning at less that 5000rpm instead of 16000rpm

Rons in business to make money, a lot of the stuff he's told me doesnt fit with what I know but Ive never heard of an engine where the pump spins at twice crank speed??? you guys need to count sprocket teeth and work the speed out yourself, if your THAT worried about pump speed (and I think your worried about nothing) get a different sized sprocket, you dont need a bigger pump if your not running a big oil cooler, (who fits bigger pumps for a small oil cooler even?) if you do go to a different pump what restrictors are you running and where? (of course he wont tell you about his parts hes making a motza on parts, people spend up hes happy)
Back on topic, dump the ballance shafts, for the difference thay make they are not worth it

[Anchor]

SOHC 4g63 here.

Spun the shafts on the lathe and cut them off after the second lot of bearings in the block. So they are now half length and tubular, no ridges sticking out.
Done this so it wouldn't fuck my oil pump.

[cheaterparts]

Ive never heard of an engine where the pump spins at twice crank speed??? you guys need to count sprocket teeth and work the speed out yourself, if your THAT worried about pump speed (and I think your worried about nothing)
Back on topic, dump the ballance shafts, for the difference thay make they are not worth it

yep they run twice the crank speed but its done to time the balance shaft which also needs to run twice the speed of the crank

and I agree woth you back on topic the balance shafts are worth more as scrap than in your engine

[Torana68]

yep they run twice the crank speed but its done to time the balance shaft which also needs to run twice the speed of the crank

that being the case gear it down and chuck the ballance shafts, is there room in there for different gearing? (no wonder I dont like Anchortrons...)
but what for? see cheaters other post, sometimes I thing people want to change stuff so they can brag they changed stuff not for any usefull gain, if you really want to go fast without issues dry sump the thing, no more problems. no wait that costs money doesnt it......

[cheaterparts]

that being the case gear it down and chuck the ballance shafts, is there room in there for different gearing? (no wonder I dont like Anchortrons...)
if you really want to go fast without issues dry sump the thing, no more problems

a smaller drive sprocket would do the job - that however may run a low oil presure at idle ( not that it would be to much of a problem )
teeth std drive 34 and driven 17 if 6 teeth were droped off the drive to 28 a new ratio of 1.647:1 or a bit over 13000 rpm @ 8000 crank rpm - its food for thought

and a dry sump is prob the best way to go - a wet sump on an astron like most engines needs a bit of thought on baffling to sump ,more bearings fail due to oil surge than std/HV pumps

[Superscan811]

I'm looking into making a "Relatively Cheap" basic oil accumulator to help solve the oil surge issue.
I already have a few of the MOROSO ACCUSUMP 3L oil accumulators, but at $500 delivered new, with all the mounts and electric solenoid, they are a bit too expensive for the average person.
Even 2nd hand on Ebay, they typically go for around US$200.

My idea is based on an old design which has to be mounted vertically (unlike the Moroso which can be mounted in any position).
It uses a $25 1KG fire extinguisher from Bunnings, the type with a brass top.
My preferred option is a 12v Solenoid Valve, it's expensive at +$80, but user friendly to operate, you just wire it straight into the ignition and it will also work as an engine pre-oiler, ie: It will float the bearings before you start the engine.
A cheaper option would be to use a standard ball valve, which cost around $20, but has to be manually turned on and off.

Another option, which will make it closer to a dry sump, is to use a non-return valve, a larger fire extinguisher bottle with an extra fitting and an oil cooler sandwich plate. It would also require the High Volume forklift pump to work successfully.

I have several different designs so far, each with their good points and bad points, and when I finally decide on which are the better designs, I'll post a bit more info.

Cheers.

[Rallyant]

Dam, I just threw my old fire extinguisher out!

I also use to annoy Scott satch i think he name is? with emails about these motors, He ran the 4 Sum fun Suzuki swift drag car as well as a rail car running the same engine.
He said every time he tried to run the motor without the shafts he would crack the block, but his engines were solid monted. So he spun up some "race" balance shafts for use in his motors

You NA guys with ya low revving motors I have a very mild cam compared to you at 280, and I have to rev limit it at 7000rpm, the second the wheels loose traction it almost instantly hits 7k
we dyno tuned it to 7k. Max powers down around 5k or less tho, need to dig out the old dynos and check on that.

But I like the idea of ditching the shafts and down gearing the Magna pump, Its something i had planed on doing before I was told about these forklift pumps. With teeth about 1/3rd wider it should still flow enough at low RPM, but enable hi rpm operation with no dramas.

[MrBishi]

Beware when running the TR pump WITHOUT balance shafts. They appear to need the support of the lower shaft to keep alignment. What happened with me, was when the gears were creating oil pressure one would deflect enough to touch the alloy housing wearing both. Eventually what happened was the small ally particles jammed in the pressure relief valve causing the oil filter to pop (otherwise I was none the wiser). Initially I didn't know what was wrong, so I refitted another pump with the same result.

Simply turn the eccentric weights off the lower shaft and run it as a 'dummy' shaft purely to support the oil pump.

[Billsy]

how long between failures? at what rpm did it happen and what oil were you running?

[stealth]

that because the pump had bad shaft to housing clearance
these not suppose to be enough to let the gear kick over!!!
cheers stealth

[Superscan811]

..that because the pump had bad shaft to housing clearance..

Beat me to it Stealth.
I was going to inquire about the initial state of the pump, before it had been installed.

Also, as Cheater pointed out, if you are running a higher volume pump, without the silent shafts, and all good bearing clearances, but the pressure relief hole is too small to release the excess flow, there would be an excessive pressure buildup through out the engine oiling system. That could also cause the oil pump gears to be forced apart/back, which in turn would cause excessive wear in the pump.

Again, it all comes down to whether you have thought the mod through thoroughly or just slapped it together without checking.

MrBishi, I'm not saying you didn't check all these things, but there are a lot of people who wouldn't bother, and then incorrectly claim the mod has major issues etc.

Cheers.

[MrBishi]

This happened twice in 500odd km.
Both were used, but good condition pumps that I pulled down and inspected beforehand.

The fact it happened twice in not huge km (and totally separate housings) indicates to me its not just a fluke. All I'm saying is that be prepared for failure if you run the larger pumps without balance shafts.

[Rally_2.6LC]

All I'm saying is that be prepared for failure if you run the larger pumps without balance shafts.

Just a note the forklift oil pumps do not have an opening for the balance shafts.


Cheers Matt

ps although this was originally about balance shafts i dont mind (its actually quite beneficial) all the talk about oil pumps

[rob440]

is the canter truck pump the same as the forklift?
does anyone have any pics. I know of a truck engine at the wreckers and I was thinking of grabbing the oil pump of it.
My motor is the std original and I dont really care about it or want to spend 500 to 800 bux on a oil pump and sprocket for 5HP increase.

[Rallyant]

Yes the canter is the same, Some cosmetic differences, i think more do with old vs later castings than canter vs forklift. the pics of my motor with the forklift pump is using the pullys from a canter pump I pulled from a wrecker once, I still have the canter pump if you want it? Ill buy a new pump for the next motor anyway.


Ill take a few more pics of the other parts and part #s people will need if doing this swap.

[rob440]

ok, so I need the pump, sprocket and the chain ( seals and gaskets of course )
will u post to Qld?
rob

[Torana68]

My motor is the std original and I dont really care about it or want to spend 500 to 800 bux on a oil pump and sprocket for 5HP increase.

no HP increase from an oil pump change, some from removing the ballance shafts. They are after high RPM reliability, a std engine wont go there.....