EPA

[DanTurboLancer]

Hi everyone,
Just wondering if anyone has any dealings with the EPA as far as their car is concerned?
What do they check out?
What compliances should your car basically meet?

I got pulled over today by the cops for a RBT, told me to lift bonnet, and when i produced my Engineers report, he didnt even want to look at it, or send me over the RTA pits, just sent me straight to the EPA.

And im kind of shitting now that ive had time to think about the possible consequences....

Im assuming its to stick a prob up the exhaust.
But does anyone know what levels it should meet,
and if i can get that tested before i go?


This Conquest motor is supposed to be made before Catalytic convertors came out.
So even though it has a Magna Head and multi point injection, by rights it doesnt have to run a cat...
And the Microtech LT-8 computer is all engineered, but im worried about the emissions, and just how rock solid the report is going to be as far as the EPA are concerned?


Im going to get it upto a tuner asap and get him to lean it off abit to lower the emission output.
And even thought its SUPPOSED to not require one.
I think im going to get a Cat fitted for the inspection anyway.
and put the old FMIC back on...


anyone dealth with these scum before?
what should i expect?

[woops]

I would say the FMIC would actually make it more efficient as with the cooler denser air you would get a better burn in the cylinder with less emissions.

I don't think you would have a problem unless the tune at part load isn't that good. It's nice and easy to get good emissions at max throttle but the mid and low throttle emissions are harder to get nice. Also try to make sure you have the engine up to operating temperature as cold starts is typically the worst performing area of an aftermarket tune. The australian rules are really stupid when it comes to emissions as the startup emissions prevented a lot of cars making it over here from japan for compliancing such as the early evo's. The emissions only apply to the age of the block so you would be under pre 85 adr but it's pretty hard for them to prove what year it's for.

Do you have an egr system on the engine at all. I know the starion 4g63 engine had them but i don't know about the 4g54. Also do you have the microtech running in closed loop mode with an oxy sensor? That would help with emissions a bit.
It's probably best to chuck on a cat and lean it out a bit espically for cold starts to make sure everything is fine cause i remember reading something that completing private emissions tests costs a small fortune.

Make sure you also have the charcoal canister for the gas tank breather lines venting in front of the turbo along with and crankcase or catch can vapors.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... _adrs.aspx

I think your engine would be for pre- adr 37 but making your car comply with that would settle their complaints if they tried to object to the newer head on the older block.

Don't forget that the carby sigma was still made up until 87 although they have a cat integrated into the exhaust manifold and all all the pollution vacuum lines on the carby.

A few more links with some more maybe useful info.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... nline.aspx

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... index.aspx

And another one for some of the modification info.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/ ... _ncop.aspx

[DanTurboLancer]

Thanks for that WOOPS,

Ill have a good read of those sites tonight.

No it doesnt have an Oxy sensor, or Charcoal Canister.
Ill def fit the Charcoal Canister for appearance sake.

and ill see what they say about oxy sensor.

Hopefully i can just get the low end fine tuned enough to clear, and then go back for a power tune again.

Last time ill go intown.... ha

[woops]

This is the degree Mitsubishi went to with the sigma in 87 to comply with the more stringent unleaded criteria to put a cat on. It's a really bad design for the replacement of cats in the future but it might be useful in making a really bodged up turbo manifold. The cat on the car only results in a power difference of about 4 kw if you get a proper sized one.

[77galantv6]

hey dan,

so unlucky mate, last place i would have thought the cops would do an RBT, -outside the copshop, lazy bludgers.

hope all goes well, and you can come cruisin again sometime

dean

[mic_77]

Call Yavus at unigroup he helped my mate get his swift passed. The guy's at the EPA are decent blokes it is the wankers that do the db testing that are the problem. Make sure you hide any catch cans or rising rate fpr.
Also do not tell them it is a starquest motor as the later the model the more crap you have to do to pass just tell them it is an 81 sigma turbo motor than the emissions that you have to meet are from 81 and that is easy with a good tuner.
You will also need to fit an airbox of a late model car that is for the db testing you will not get away with a pod. These pricks take pictures and submit them to the RTA so make sure you get it right.
If you had a pre72 car you only have to meet emissions for pre72 no matter the engine that is what has been metioned to me before and also what i was able to make of the RTA rules.


cheers Mic

[Sigmaproject]

As mic_77 stated, it has to meet the polution requirements at the time of the build plate being attatched to the body.

The motor can be newer than the build date, but if it is older it has to meet the reqs at the time the build plate was attached .

The guys doing the test have no input at all. It is all up to the polution checking equipment , and the final computer printout.

And you will definately need a working EGR valve.

[DanTurboLancer]

hey dan,

so unlucky mate, last place i would have thought the cops would do an RBT, -outside the copshop, lazy bludgers.


dean

lol yeah!

it is the wankers that do the db testing that are the problem. Make sure you hide any catch cans or rising rate fpr.
Also do not tell them it is a starquest motor as the later the model the more crap you have to do to pass just tell them it is an 81 sigma turbo motor than the emissions that you have to meet are from 81 and that is easy with a good tuner.
You will also need to fit an airbox of a late model car that is for the db testing you will not get away with a pod. These pricks take pictures and submit them to the RTA so make sure you get it right.

cheers Mic

Im not worried about the DB testing as its actually a really quiet exhaust.
but didnt realise the Rising rate fuel pump would be a worry, im screwed.
Catch can can be removed if a must... Pain in the butt.
Even thought the engineers report also mentions happy with Pod filter exposed, i was planning on making a Staino box for the front corner, so cheers i will do that.


I was of the understanding that the pollution gear had to meet the Motor if it was newer than the model of the body.
like if i had a VK Commo (pre pollution) and dropped in a VL V8 (VL had pollution gear)
then i would have to meet the motors requirements????


Anyway i will be fitting as much crap as i can and removing what ever i have to just to get it passed.
Otherwise this may turn into one very expensive rally car LOL
Targa Tasmania hear i come

[Sigmaproject]

Definately has to meet the polution requirements on the compliance plate of your car. Yours is probably 27 or 27a.
But all of these motors are basicly the same, with just a different, more complicated carby for each ADR change.

The pic above showing the Cat converter straight off the inlet manifold, also shows the air injection required to get the carby unleaded Astrons to meet the ADR's in 1986

So it should all mean that if you fit a motor from a later model, everything should be sweet as far as ADR's go, thats until we go tampering with things

Another must do is a PCV valve.

Dont forget, the Yanks have to get a smog test done every couple of years. There are plenty of websites form guys over there with tips on how to get your car to pass the test.

[DanTurboLancer]

cool ,cheers Sigma Project.

Mine is the Turbo motor, so cant run the Cat like that, ill just get a normal one fitted underneath.

Is a Catch can ok if it is plumbed back into rocker cover?
As in doesnt have its own seperate exposed air filter?

Is the rising rate fuel regulater illegal?

Last question, do blow off valves have to be plumbed back into intake??
as far as i see it, they dont have any fuel or recirculated air in the system, it is only to release the build up of compressed air, so it wouldnt be a problem, unless i do have to have the rocker cover plumbed back into the intake pipe before the Turbo??
Which it isnt atm, but something i may have to do...

My car is 74, the engine is something like 85... not sure exactly, but apparently before the Catalytic convertor came out.
But then it has a Magna head and Injection, so that will change its requirements again.
Plus it has a Microtech so im sure they will be abit hard on it...

[Sigmaproject]

After to talking to an RTA approved engineer at Cardiff, it would seem that the most important thing is passing the smog test.

If you are running EFI it should shit it in. The rest is just safety issues.

Athol Mullen 49568030

[woops]

Is a Catch can ok if it is plumbed back into rocker cover?

This wouldn't work as the pressure from the rocker cover would have no where to go.

The crankcase gases can only be fed back into the intake. On a N/A the blowby gases are fed into the intake where it is then burnt in the engine and is why the inside of inlet manifold is often covered in oil. Turbo engine don't have the constant vacuum from the inlet manifold so the gases have to be fed into the intake after the air filter and before the turbo.

The catch can only be plumbed in so that the blowby gasses go from the rocker cover to the catch can and then from the catch can to just before the turbo and after the air filter. You won't have much in the way of oil gases getting into the inlet as the gases mostly condense in the catch can. Also the catch can can't ever have an exposed air filter due to emissions laws.

I can't confirm about the adjustable fuel pressure regulator as all it does is control the fuel pressure. If the injectors are tuned right then there would be no problem. I'm not positive what the law is though.

Also the Blow off valves must be plumbed back into the turbo intake as well. Even though the gases are nothing more then compressed air the authorities still don't like them. It's partly due to noise and partly due to emissions. The only emissions problem is if the turbo has real problems the oils seals are letting oil into the inlet side of the turbo and then this oil can be released into the atmosphere and engine bay.

The cat is fine to be located on the exhaust system but it's best to have it located as close to the engine as possible as it really only start working properly when it gets up to temperature.

Also the emission requirements only apply to the block and not the head. You can only put a newer emissions engine into an older car and not an older emissions engine into a newer car.

Also the reason why they try to say that aftermarket computers aren't legal is because you could have the engine tuned to give the best emissions and then after the test go and tune it back to poor emissions. The only way they say for aftermarket computer are legal is if they are locked so after being tuned they can't be changed. It's a really stupid idea as a tune for the best emissions is pretty close to the best power one. The best power tune is just a little richer. The car with the original engine would be more damaging to emissions then a average tuned performance engine. Also the standard magna engine would probably be running richer factory then with the aftermarket computer.

[woops]

After to talking to an RTA approved engineer at Cardiff, it would seem that the most important thing is passing the smog test.

Is the smog test the one where the engine is started cold and the first ten min or something are taken for emissions?

I know that test is what prevented a lot of jap imports coming over here. The EPA i think targets performance cars too often and should look at the vehicles like taxis and family vehicles where they would rarely ever have their cat converter changed as often as required or the oxy sensors cleaned at all. It's one of those things people never bother replacing when they get worn out and just assume they last for ever.

[DanTurboLancer]

Thanks Woops,
yeah i was more referring to if you can actually have a Catch can at all, but i think it will be ok as, as you pointed out, it cant have a filter to atmosphere, which mine doesnt.
Mine is taken from Rocker cover, and returns to Inlet Manifold.
I know that isnt the best, but ill fix it after i get it passed.

And the problem for the cat is room in the engine bay.
But underneath as far forward will do the job.

After to talking to an RTA approved engineer at Cardiff, it would seem that the most important thing is passing the smog test.

If you are running EFI it should shit it in. The rest is just safety issues.

Athol Mullen 49568030

Thanks Sigmaproject, yeah i know of Athol, he is only 5mins away from me.
Ive called him with question on other cars ive done up in the past and he is always happy to chat and give his time.

But mine is all engineered by a guy in Sydney.
So apart from the new intercooler and pipes, i havent changed anything in the engine bay.
It was engineered with the BOV venting to atmosphere, and he gave it the nod (and its written and noted on the report) that he was ok with it having an exposed pod filter....


So then that comes back to my question of just how solid are these Engineers reports, where a body like the EPA are concerned.
And as they arent the RTA, can they inspect for anything unsafe or modified, or are they solely to test emissions, and anything that could cause an environmental incident?



anyway here is a pic of the engine bay, I have a charcoal canister im going to fit, and im not sure where they are supposed to be fitted to on the injection set up.
Could anyone show me their set up for injection?
and where the lines have to run to.
Cheers Dan

[C_Fernance]

I have to go and speak with Athol myself. Need to get some info on what i will need to do to get him to engineer the Galant wagon. Can't see it having too many issues myself as it will basically be all Scorpion running gear in an older shell.

[www.18u]

Dan,
Your Conquest/Starion motor would run a cat convertor as my Widebody 2.6 Starion does. By any chance did you buy the motor from a importer in Moorebank? If you need any pics as far as the original setup goes let me know.

[mic_77]

[quote="DanTurboLancer"]
So then that comes back to my question of just how solid are these Engineers reports, where a body like the EPA are concerned.
And as they arent the RTA, can they inspect for anything unsafe or modified, or are they solely to test emissions, and anything that could cause an environmental incident?


Just so you know the police do not care even if your car has been emmissions tested or engineered they still have the power to send you again and will use the pics they and the epa have taken to compare and see if you have been playing with it.
Yes the epa is only concerned with the emmissions like I said previously it is the knobs that do the DB testing that are the problem they are connected with the RTA these are the ones that check for carbon cannisters and the like the epa guys don't give a rats aslong as it passes the the test on the dyno. My mates swift passed with a pod and all including vented catch can it was when he went for db testing it all turned to shit.


cheers Mic

[DanTurboLancer]

Dan,
Your Conquest/Starion motor would run a cat convertor as my Widebody 2.6 Starion does. By any chance did you buy the motor from a importer in Moorebank? If you need any pics as far as the original setup goes let me know.

Ahh ok, thanks man, well i was told more rubbish from the guy i bought it off then haha.
I bought the car basically as is man, I was told that he Bought the American version of the Starion, and the model of motor was pre Catalytic convertor.....
But im thinking it may have been oringinally a leaded motor to be that??
And if that is the case, swithing to the Unleaded set up, will then require a Cat.

I dont know enough about the early Starions to know if they came without Cats...??

Man if you can show me where your Charcoal Cansiter is hooked upto would be Great!
as in describe where the Hoses goto and from also. Cheers.

Just so you know the police do not care even if your car has been emmissions tested or engineered they still have the power to send you again and will use the pics they and the epa have taken to compare and see if you have been playing with it.
Yes the epa is only concerned with the emmissions like I said previously it is the knobs that do the DB testing that are the problem they are connected with the RTA these are the ones that check for carbon cannisters and the like the epa guys don't give a rats aslong as it passes the the test on the dyno. My mates swift passed with a pod and all including vented catch can it was when he went for db testing it all turned to shit.


cheers Mic

So as im being sent to the EPA, who are the body that then are testing the DB and all the extras you mentioned?
Is that the RTA you are referring to? or some other branch?


What sort of probs did he have, im interested to know what to expect they will be picking on, and what they will do about it.

Cheers

[mic_77]

The epa check is the easy one to pass it is when you get sent to cambelltown to check the carbon cannister and the like that you will start having the headaches you need to hide as much as possible and like I said before do not tell them it is a starion motor as it will be harder to pass.


cheers Mic

[Sigmaproject]

My motor is a leaded motor now running unleaded without a cat. Why do you need a cat???????

[DanTurboLancer]

Hopefully someone can answer this, because to be honest i dont know.
But what im saying is if its pre cat, then it shouldnt be a problem.

If its post Cat, then i will definitely require one.

But if i want to pass without issues, considering its Fuel injection set up, and after market computer,
then the cat will just reduce the emissions put out by the Unleaded fuel to meet requirements Yeah??



I know what a Catalytic convertor does, and how it works.
Im just not sure what the legal requirements are when you are switching from Leaded to Unleaded, or doing engine swaps into older model cars...??

[www.18u]

From my understanding the rule is whatever motor you put in, you must meet the emmision requirements for that vehicle. Having a "sigma turbo" motor would be beneficial, compared to say a magna/starion unleaded setup.

[GB_BB4C]

From my understanding the rule is whatever motor you put in, you must meet the emmision requirements for that vehicle. Having a "sigma turbo" motor would be beneficial, compared to say a magna/starion unleaded setup.

From my understanding it is the date of the block or the vin/chassis that they go by.
For example: my 73 GB Galant has a 81 GH block in it with a Magna EFI setup. As the block it newer than the car i have to meet the emission standards that were set in the 1981 reguardless of wether it is carby or EFI.
on the other hand
If my 84 GK motor shat itself i have a spare 81 GH motor lying around. As the date on the vin/chassis is newer i have to comply with the emissions set in 1984.

(this is what i understand they go by, i may be wrong, this was mainly to give an example to those that may have trouble understanding the technical way that the write up the rule's)

[www.18u]

It sounds like we are trying to say the same thing but in two different ways

[DanTurboLancer]

ahh no that was the way i understood the rules also,
Its basically whatever is newer!

As i mentioned earlier, If i put a VL V8 Black block (which had Emission controls) into a VK Body, the car would have to meet the VL's Emissions....

However in the opposite case of putting a XE V8 (no major emission rules) into a later XF body, which had the emissions, plus is a newer vehicle)
Then the only way it is legal to do it, is meet all the later bodies emission controls, or go with LPG...
Or that is the way i have always understood it to be..??

[leoca]

Hey there Dan.!I have a transplant engine from a starion widebody half cut and it definately has a cat straight after the turbo ..in fact it bolts to it. There is also a black canister bolted to the tappet cover that gets gases.
chances are your engine is/was identical ie a jap one ...mine was from a 1987 or maybe 88 vehicle (unsure).
The one thing that would decide this is the original head ...did it have a letter box rear water port (like a GN sigma (87)?.Mine has.Can send photo if you like (as per www.18)

[Sigmaproject]

Scorpion and Pajero Astron II is basicly the same motor. Block will have the balanceshaft removable covers and a M 20 something head, and the rocker cover notched for the throttle cable .

[rx22nv]

In my experiences, I had a letter sent to me in the mail asking them to present my RX2 at the epa for testing. They were concerned with noise only, not emissions. In my area the RTA do the emissions testing not the EPA, you may be in luck.

[DanTurboLancer]

Oh great someone that has been to the EPA
I really hope that is the case!!
Ill be home free....

But they didnt seem interested in the exhaust at all, and as i said its actually really quite.

He only made mention of the Intercooler, and made me lift the bonnet, and i dont think he knew what he was looking at, and when i pulled out the Engineers report, thats when he straight away said, well i will want you to goto the EPA...



I hope you are right and its just an exhaust DB test!!!


Thanks alot RX22NV!!

[rx22nv]

No worries!

What paperwork did they give you? Did he give you a notice himself to go to the EPA? This whole thing really bugs me, the police have no clue and yet they can write fines, discredit your engineers report and send you whereever they like, because they see shiny stuff in the engine bay.