ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

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ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:45 pm

Swapped a few parts the other day for a "freshened up" short block (hone, bearings and rings).

The short block was "freshened up by a 3rd party, not the person I got it off. They were told it was all fine.

On a quick inspection of the bores, they looked very average so I decided to investigate.


This is what I found.


The Bores

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The bigend bearings.

Image

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Image

Image

Hmm.


The crank, pistons (repco high comp) and rings seem fine but no way this engine would have lasted long. most likely would have spun a rod bearing (or 2) if driven hard.

Always pays to check.

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby astronturbo77 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 5:47 pm

looks like the pistons have been sitting in the same position in the bore for quite some time.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Fri Apr 15, 2011 6:09 pm

astronturbo77 wrote:looks like the pistons have been sitting in the same position in the bore for quite some time.
I'd say they just grabbed an old block, gave it a hone with a "bottle brush" style hone, not bothering to remove the corrosion damage in the bores, as it would require a bore and a new set of pistons.

What surprised me more is the crank seems to be in good condition, no scores etc..., and will only require a light linish to be perfect.

Guess I'll just have to use the +0.040" Duralite high comp pistons I won off ebay the other week.

Time to buy a new set of bearings as well.

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:49 am

Decided I'll just do a basic rebuild on this engine.
Parts:
1. Bronze valve guides
2. 1mm OS stainless valves and double valve springs.
3. High comp ACL Duralite pistons (+1.00mm)
4. Swivel foot tapets.
5. TS Magna oil pump.
6. Balance shaft eliminator kit.
7. Bearings of course.
The rest of the bits will be standard as this is isn't going to be a "PERFORMANCE" engine, just a solid daily.

The block is currently being acid dipped, ready for the bore and hone tomorrow, along with taking 1mm of the deck.

Crank has been linished and I also relieved the oil holes.

Valve guides to be removed on one of my spare M7 heads so I can do a mild port and also remove the sharp edges in the combustion chamber, prior to putting in the new goodies.

Image

After that, I'll remove 1mm off the head.

Even with a total of 2mm off the block and head, the compression ratio will only be around 9.5:1

The engine in the wagon, I would guess, is around 8.4:1, so the new engine should spin a bit better.

If time permits, I may even lighten a standard flywheel, just taking some of the big lumps off around the outside edge.
As I don't intend regularly rev the engine past 5500rpm, I don't think this will be a problem.

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby ralliartsigma » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Were the oil holes in the bearings counter sunk and do they still have any of the lead coating on them?
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby ISKA8 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:33 pm

hey buds,i reckon you should go and slap the taste outta the guys mouth that had it and whoever apparently rebuilt it..find them! :lol:
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:45 pm

ralliartsigma wrote:Were the oil holes in the bearings counter sunk and do they still have any of the lead coating on them?
I don't think so, but I don't believe that was the issue.

I suspect there was some metal shavings in the crank oil galleys that 1/2 fell out of the oil holes, causing this damage when it was being assembled.
It looks like the engine was never run, just assembled poorly.

The oil galleys have now all been reamed as well, to be sure there is no loose debris. They will also be thoroughly cleaned before going anywhere near the block.



ISKA8 wrote:hey buds,i reckon you should go and slap the taste outta the guys mouth that had it and whoever apparently rebuilt it..find them! :lol:
The short block was "freshened up" by a 3rd party a few years ago and has sat on a friends bench, covered, for the last 2 years.
The block had been well oiled and the corrosion in the boors was obviously there before it was "freshened up".
Don't know whether it was a backyard job or shop job. Will try and find out, just so I can avoid ever using them.

Kind of makes you wonder how many "backyard" engine rebuilds are done like this.

It doesn't take much to damage the bearing shell and the worst thing is because the score was in the center of the shell (as you would expect ) the oil film will only support 1/2 the hydrodynamic pressure before the crank will hit the bearing shell.
Halve the area, quarter the force it can support, and since the bearing surface is effectively in 2 halves, 1/4 + 1/4 =1/2.

NOT GOOD.


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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby ralliartsigma » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:33 pm

The main reason i ask is because i work at ACL Bearing Co, once the oil hole is pierced in the making of the part (depending on tooling) it can cause some serious burrs on the inside of bearing shell around the hole. These burrs will pick up on the crank the second its turned over. This is why we counter sink 99.9% of the parts we make. Cheers Trent
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:39 pm

ralliartsigma wrote:The main reason i ask is because i work at ACL Bearing Co, once the oil hole is pierced in the making of the part (depending on tooling) it can cause some serious burrs on the inside of bearing shell around the hole. These burrs will pick up on the crank the second its turned over. This is why we counter sink 99.9% of the parts we make. Cheers Trent


A close-up of one of the bearings shows these 2 foreign particles.

Image

From that it looks like the crank wasn't cleaned as the particles are a bit big to be a burr.

:thumpsup: Thanks for the info, I'll make sure ALL the oil holes are properly relieved. :thumpsup:

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Thu Apr 21, 2011 10:22 pm

Head is done.

1mm OS Stainless valves, bronze valve guides, double valve springs and 1mm taken off the head.
Removed all the sharp edges in the combustion chamber to help reduce detonation.
Image
With the 1mm taken off the head, and because the valve heads are a bit thicker, I'm hoping to go under 68cc in the combustion chamber.
68cc with a zero deck will be 9.5:1CR. Would really like to get it above 10:1 but that may be pushing it.
I'll cc it tomorrow and find out.


A quick port job on the inlets.
Image

And exhaust.
Image

Block has been bored and honed 1mm over, then decked 1mm.
Image


Things to do:
1. Chamfer the top of the bores and thoroughly clean the block.
2. Press off the old pistons and then install the new ACL ones.
3. Gap the rings.
4. Re-clean the crank oil galleys.
5. Dummy fit everything.
6 Check the bearing clearances.
7. Check the valve clearance.
8. Fully assemble the engine.

Guess what I'll be doing over the Easter break...


Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:33 pm

Did a test fit today after spending 2 hours cleaning the block.

I was surprised to find around 1 teaspoon of hard particles in the block's oil galleys.
While some may have been from the machining, most of the bits were sand and hardened gasket sealer.
No wonder it's easy for an engine to quickly fail if all the galleys aren't thoroughly cleaned before assembly.

CC'd the head and it's 69cc, damn, but when I fit the new pistons, they were 0.3mm above the deck so the compression ratio is 9.6:1.
The valves clear the pistons by a large amount (using a fairly standard cam), so all things being equal, it should be able to handle a much lumpier cam in the future, if required.
Even toying the idea of using the supercharger I bought but that will be a while away yet. Just need to get this engine up and running ASAP.

Sandblasted the front timing cover, sump, rocker cover and a few other parts, but haven't decided whether I'll paint them or just leave them raw.

Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby astronturbo77 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:53 pm

should put a m9 head with the kidney combustion chambers to raise the compression?
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:34 pm

astronturbo77 wrote:should put a m9 head with the kidney combustion chambers to raise the compression?
Thanks for the idea.

May do that with a future build.

The main aim, at the moment, is getting it running and in the wagon. I'm supposed to be going up to Brisbane next week and would like to have this engine in and tested before I leave.

Guess I'll just have to hurry up and finish the high compression engine if I want a stronger engine.

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:19 am

Not a lot of progress today.
Rings are gapped.
Thoroughly cleaned out all the block oil galleys again.
The rear oil hole screw is now in (the one that is hidden by the gearbox).

Was disappointed with the linishing job done on the crank and although all the light scores were removed, the journals still felt a bit rough.
Some 1600 grit emery cloth and around 1 hour, now the bearing surfaces have a bit smoother finish.
Mic'd up the surfaces after and they are still within standard spec,
0.033-mm under was the smallest on the mains (0.045 MAX) and 0.035-mm on the big-ends (0.056 MAX).
Thoroughly cleaned the crank again.

New bearings, a bit of moly grease on the bolts and bearings, nipped up the main caps and everything spins freely. :D

Putting the main caps on I found that 3 of the bolts were bent slightly. Luckily I'm using ARP big-end studs on my other 2 engines so I have 2 spare sets of standard bolts I could choose from.

Tomorrow:
1. Buy a sump gasket, ring compressor, welch plugs and a TS Magna ratchet timing chain tensioner.
2. May be make a baffle for the sump.
3. Final assembly and hopefully install before the weekend. :o

Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:11 pm

Hit a snag today.

The block is a wide block (330mm betwen the gearbox bolt holes) but it uses a narrow sump and timing cover.

Just spoke to Cheater and he informed me that it's a GN wide block. Basically it's the same as the early Magna blocks, including the extra welch plugged hole at the rear of the block which the Magna uses for their water pump, but with a wide block gearbox pattern.

Now trying to locate a narrow sump and timing cover. :(

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby woops » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:05 pm

Superscan811 wrote:Hit a snag today.

The block is a wide block (330mm betwen the gearbox bolt holes) but it uses a narrow sump and timing cover.

Just spoke to Cheater and he informed me that it's a GN wide block. Basically it's the same as the early Magna blocks, including the extra welch plugged hole at the rear of the block which the Magna uses for their water pump, but with a wide block gearbox pattern.

Now trying to locate a narrow sump and timing cover. :(

Cheers.


I didn't even realise that with the GN blocks. I actually went out and checked an old astron i pulled out of an 87 model to confirm and i see what you mean about the welsh plug. The welsh plug actually kinda stick out halfway out further than where the edge of the block would normally be. Weird.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Fri May 13, 2011 7:35 pm

Had the Starion Flywheel machined, lightened and balanced, then had the clutch pressure plate bolted to it and re balanced, only taking weight off the clutch housing this time.


The flywheel is down to 8kg's (from 10.1kg's), all from the outside rims
AND
no material was removed from the center(except to face it of course). :D

Did a few measurements, comparing the standard 2.6L Sigma WIDE flywheel to the starion one.

1. The starion clutch surface is 3mm closer to the block, so you would need to have your thrust bearing spaced 3mm further out if you use the starion flywheel.

2. The standard Starion flywheel is 10.1kg's, I had previously been under the impression that it was 15kg's. The standard Sigma flywheel weighed in at 16kg's.




On the back, removed the "inertia ring" and cleaned up the ring gear

Image




On the front, removed all the excess material from the outer rim but left a 3mm step so the ring gear can't come forward.

Image




Decided to play with some Electroless Nickel I had floating about.
Coated the rocker shafts,
the TR Magna oil pump gears,
the end bearings on the cam shaft (my EN bath wasn't long enough to do the whole cam shaft),
the cam gears (including the CheaterParts vernier drilled cam gear :D )
and the front crank pulley.

Image



Installed the head studs and new welch plugs.
Image

Not a lot more to do before putting it in. :D :D :D


Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 6:14 pm

Out with the old and in with the reco...

On the weekend I removed the old engine and installed the new one. :D

Funnily enough the engine bay looks almost the same.. :lol:
Image
Just a few minor plumbing changes.


It's all up and running with only 1 "relatively minor" hiccup. I forgot to fully tighten up the waterpump bolts, and while it was only a small leak and the engine didn't get too hot (just in the red zone), I was running it in at the time. :banh:
Definitely not the time to get the engine too hot.

On a different note, one of the reasons I use a bypass oil filter is because it filters out particles down to 1/2 a micron.
Case in point are these metal flakes that had passed through a 35-micron stainless steel oil filter (the normal paper oil filter is 60+ microns) but were caught by the bypass oil filter.
Image
Most of the particles were from from bedding in the rings and NO, I didn't use any magnets to trap the particles, just the filter.



One of the niggling problems I had with the old engine was clutch slip. Once it was engaged, it was fine but even on a mild takeoff, it would slip.
I found out why :@
Image
The pressure plate is either warped or not installed flat in its' shell. All the bolts on the flywheel were tight and while there are still machining marks in the top right side of the pressure plate the bottom left side, as you can see, has been doing most of the work.

The new Starion clutch and lightened flywheel make a BIG difference. Definitely needs a bit more throttle on takeoff but that is where the negatives end.

Want to put a few 100 k's on it before dynoing it but the "seat of the pants dyno" tells me there is a few more horses pulling it along. 8o|


Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:56 pm

Did the calculations and this engine build has cost me around $1100 including the clutch and flywheel.
90% of the parts were purchased off EBay, which I averaged out to have cost less than 50% of normal retail.

Parts purchased off EBay:
1. Pistons rings and gudgeon
2. SS Valves
3. Bronze valve guides and seals.
4. Engine gasket kit.
5. Swivel foot tappets.
6. Engine bearing kit.
7. Timing chain kit.

Work I paid to have done:
1. Acid clean, boring, honing and decking the block.
2. All the valve work and skimming the head.
3. Linish and balance crank.

Spent a lot of time and effort in building this engine and to be honest, it's my first full engine build I have attempted.
Mistakes were made but all were fixed. Wanted it done right so even though it took a while to rectify , and some ingenuity was required, it's done and I'm very happy with the results so far.
Lessons learned.

Only another 3 engines (currently) to do.

Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby A112H » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:22 pm

That is seriously impressive mate, well done :thumpsup:
Looking forward to seeing some figures but seat of the pants is always a good indication.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 9:55 pm

Galant_GT0 wrote:That is seriously impressive mate, well done :thumpsup:
Thankyou.
It's quite daunting the first time you attempt to do something like this, but in the end, it was just a lot of little tasks and a lot more checking (and cleaning).


Galant_GT0 wrote:Looking forward to seeing some figures but seat of the pants is always a good indication.
Not just you. :D
By Thursday, I should have around 500k's on it so that would be a good time to check.
Again, I'm not expecting to reach 100kw at the wheels, it wasn't built as a powerhouse, just a solid daily driver.

I'll have to go easy on the old wagon now as the gearbox is fairly tired, the input shaft showed a bit of excess play when I did the transplant. Planning on a Starion box conversion in the near future. Currently have 3 rebuilt ones in the shed just waiting to be used, but that will require a hydraulic clutch conversion, which will be good practice for the blue GN wagon build.

Another good thing I did notice, there was a dramatic reduction in the amount of engine vibration, especially above 3000rpm. Guess all that time spent balancing the rods and pistons was well spent.

Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:57 pm

Clocked over 400k so decided it would be ok to dyno it.

I didn't gain in the peak power but the power doesn't drop off anywhere near as quickly.

(open the pics up full screen to see a bit more detail)

BEFORE
Image


AFTER
Image

Decided to run the TE logger during the dyno runs.
Image

All in all, it's a good result, although I was a bit surprised there wasn't a gain in the peak power. :(

Could be because it's running a standard 2.0L cam, not the stage 2 cam that was in my other engine. :D

May have to swap it and see.

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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:53 am

Swapped the cam a few days ago but haven't noticed a major difference. :(

Purchased a better Oil Pressure warning switch. The standard one only comes on at 2-5psi, which in my opinion is way too low.

It's a bit like a low fuel light coming on just as you run out of petrol.

This Oil Pressure Warning Light Kit activates below 20psi.

Much better in my opinion because when I first installed my engine, and just turning over, before the oil had fully gone through it, my oil light went out.
Hmm.


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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby davetrees » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:14 pm

Out of interest, what's the short upwards "blip" in the hp curve in the lower part of both plots ?
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby cheaterparts » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:41 pm

Scott you asked about my dyno sheet while we were on the phone a while back it is lost on imageshack so took a pic and chucked it back on

Image
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby Superscan811 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:34 pm

davetrees wrote:Out of interest, what's the short upwards "blip" in the hp curve in the lower part of both plots ?
No firm info on that blip to be honest.

The first blip and the leveling out (rather than continuing down) at around 5100 - 5300 rpm are just before the dips in the AFR.

At a "guesimate" 11.4-AFR seems pretty good but any richer and the power drops off dramatically.

cheaterparts wrote:Scott you asked about my dyno sheet while we were on the phone a while back it is lost on imageshack so took a pic and chucked it back on
Thanks Cheater. That dyno sheet always inspires me. :D

A few more bits arrived today, some 95-deg bi-metal switches to use as an "idiot light" for the water temp.
Can't have too many idiot lights. :D

Cheers.
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby dvsfin » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:22 pm

alright, how do I get near that power mr cheater
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby cheaterparts » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:14 pm

dvsfin wrote:alright, how do I get near that power mr cheater



there no real trick !
it uses off the shelf duralight pistons up 0.060"
some preped rods - polished/peaned with ARP bolt
theres a bit of weight off the crank and a fairly light flywheel
some porting of the head - more comp
a man sized cam - and valve springs
2 Dcoe webers
crankscraper

a little attention to detail on assembley and tuned fairly well

all work done by myself apart from

I had the block bored - the valve seats cut - the rods resized and the peaning - and the balancing
just a few things that I havent got tools to do these jobs

and I have a fairly good dyno guy
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby dvsfin » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:31 pm

cool, I plan on doing something like that until I can legally drive with my turbo motor in.

the only problem is that it's my only car at the moment and I cant afford to have it off the road >_<
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Re: ALWAYS check an unknown engine build.

Postby A112H » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:44 pm

You can swap a motor in a day with ease, build a spare and swap it over when finished :)
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