75wagon's GD sedan, now wagon project...

[geezer101]

Any reason you couldn't space the carbs further apart so you could run straight pipes into the head?

They share throttle shafts, so without going through the process of manufacturing new shafts to accomodate the change in spacing it can't be done. There's other mods that would also need to take place to change the carby spacing. Got an idea for you Dave that might save you some time. Theoretically, if you can find the relative centre point between the carbies and the ports, you should only need to make one mould for an intake runner and use it 4 times. When you come to jig it up all you should need to do is rotate the runners to line up with the carby throats. That way you are guaranteed they are almost exactly the same volume.

[A112H]

The cost of this seems to be largely out weighing the value, which I get but this seems to be doing it the hard way just for doing it the hard way. I would think spacing the carbs would be the easy option.

[75wagon]

Any reason you couldn't space the carbs further apart so you could run straight pipes into the head?

Exactly what geezer101 said

Got an idea for you Dave that might save you some time. Theoretically, if you can find the relative centre point between the carbies and the ports, you should only need to make one mould for an intake runner and use it 4 times. When you come to jig it up all you should need to do is rotate the runners to line up with the carby throats. That way you are guaranteed they are almost exactly the same volume.

Funny you say that.
It's pretty much what I've ended up with.
I made the first runner insert, then tried it in the second port. It was exactly the same.
I centred it so No1 and No4 pipes were the same, and so No2 and No3 were the same as well. It's just by luck that they seem for all 4 to be the same.
Either way, I have made all 4 so I can lay it up in 1 go and not have to slow down the process with having to use the same mould over and over and wasting time waiting for it to dry.
The problem with the method I have chosen, is that the mould is single use only, otherwise I would have to do a split mould and then join it up. I'll have to mould the thermostat housing separately anyway, then trim and join.

The cost of this seems to be largely out weighing the value

How's that?
Fibreglassing materials as sooo cheap.
labour is the main cost.
Time I have, money I don't.

[75wagon]

It wouldn't matter if the pipes were straight or curved, I still have to do the same process to make them anyway?
So there's no difference to me...

[75wagon]

As for cost
- 4 litres of swarcor (heat and chemical resistant resin) cost me $58
- catalyst for same cost $6
- 225gram chopped strand mat costs $3 a lineal metre
- 450gram chopped strand mat costs $6 a lineal metre

I'd say the remote intake filter cost me about $30 in materials, and the trumpets with the trials I made would have cost me about $20 in materials.

As for time, now that is a different story...

Dave...

[A112H]

They share throttle shafts, so without going through the process of manufacturing new shafts to accomodate the change in spacing it can't be done.

Exactly what geezer101 said

This is the most rediculous answer I think I have ever read.
So if you need to change something to acheive a result it can't be done???? Do you both want to read that again and have a think about it?
Great lesson for the young lads in your response is all I can say.
Gotta say I am pretty dissapointed in you both, for different reasons.

[75wagon]

So if you need to change something to acheive a result it can't be done????

Well, geezer was close enough, they don't actually share shafts, but they interlock. To space them requires a lot of work, superscan himself tried it with one set, and determined in the end the amount of work was not worth the result.

Fact is, I don't want to space them. I don't see the point

Gotta say I am pretty dissapointed in you both, for different reasons.

Really?

Note: I have to admit though Jason, this is a pretty funny argument from a guy who told me he was happy for someone else to make his manifold because he was too lazy

[Superscan811]

OK you two, I'll weigh in on this "discussion".

First and foremost, my first manifold had angled but mostly straight runners which worked very well in my opinion.

Having straight runners would (in theory) help increase the air velocity, and therefore pressure in the runners,
BUT
Dave is making a "forced" cold air induction system where the straightness of the runners is slightly less important. Straight runners would help, but I don't believe it will make that much difference in this case.

As for spacing out the carbs, it is a major PITA (Pain In The Ass). Dave has a lathe so in theory, it's do-able, but it will require a lot more effort because even after they are spaced out, the manifold still has to be made...

I've spaced out 2 sets of quad throttle bodies and 2 sets of bike carbs and while it's not particularly hard, it is very time consuming to do it right.

I'm more GO oriented ie: because functional is my main priority, pretty don't matter, but for Dave it's all about the SHOW, well almost..

So to sum it up, the unspaced 40mm motorbike carbs, on a fiberglass inlet manifold, will still work a bucket load better than the standard, or even most Weber/Dellorto/etc.. setups.

There are several things I don't think are "optimal" and have told Dave that, but I was originally told that putting carbs off a 750cc motorbike, onto a 2.6L engine, would not work well. I believe I proved them wrong..

So while the manifold/etc. may not be optimal, it will satisfy Dave's need for "PRETTY".

I'm watching very closely on how this all turns out but either way, Dave will definitely enjoy the outcome..



Cheers.

[Scorpma82]

Personally.....i'd do the exact same thing as 75 is doing....building your own stuff........one day, some one will come up to him and say "Hey that's different, where you get that from?, It looks really good". He can turn around and say (with pride most importantly) "I built that from scratch"......isn't that the whole purpose of actually BUILDING a car is all about?

No-one's 1st attempt at something new is ever perfect. You'll always find a way to do some faster, cheaper, more effeciently.

Hell, look at some of the ideas i've come up with:
Scorpion wagon,
GSR look-a-like wagon
Super Saloon look-a-like wagon
Custom boot floor (with the logo's)
Woodgrain trims


I think what 75 is doing is great work and i can only applaud him for it........coz now it gives me some ideas for my own car.....and correct me if im wrong....but thats what its all about


Great work mate....keep it up

[geezer101]

They share throttle shafts, so without going through the process of manufacturing new shafts to accomodate the change in spacing it can't be done.

Exactly what geezer101 said

This is the most rediculous answer I think I have ever read.
So if you need to change something to acheive a result it can't be done???? Do you both want to read that again and have a think about it?
Great lesson for the young lads in your response is all I can say.
Gotta say I am pretty dissapointed in you both, for different reasons.

...maybe should have a read jase lol
There is a pressed steel bracket holding all the carbies in alignment, evenly spaced and rigid (something you can't bang up in the shed), the brass throttle butterfly shafts (this is a job for a fitter and turner), shared fuel lines between the paired carbies etc etc. No point I said it can't be done, just it can't be done without going through the process of manufacturing new shafts and parts. Now me, personally, I am the guy who loves it when some expert tells me something can't be done and I show up 2 months later holding a bag of unicorn poo and telling the expert to fertilise his lawn with this. But I also factor in what I can do and the reality of what it will cost if I'm not taking the hands on approach. If Dave wanted to fork out for the modification of a set of bike carbies just to space them out, he might as well spend the money on a set of jenvey ITB's on a custom manifold or buy your set up. He is doing this in his shed with no specialised equipment or training like 95% of the site users (other than a course for laying up 'glass) My hat is off to the guy - back to the thread

[75wagon]

Just as a note, the method I'm using is probably not the best way, the highest performing, easiest or even a way I'm suggesting for others to do it. It is however the method I have chosen, and I have been posting my progress so you reading this can see what I'm doing. If you don't like it, or think it's rubbish that's fine.

I just hope it works

Thankyou for those who are encouraging me, I appreciate it.

And for those raising points that I need to consider, Thankyou also.

I appreciate a good discussion

I have started laying up glass on the mould, not sure how long it will take, I need the wall thickness to be quite substantial.

Dave...

[75wagon]

Well, I've had a winner.
I've glassed up the main body of the intake manifold mould, and removed carb end of the jig, and removed the pipe moulds.
I'm still yet to add a thermostat housing (which I need to make a mould).

I would have added pics but I am having problems loading them, I'll get them up as soon as I'm able.

Dave...

[75wagon]

First lay up.


After 3rd lay up with some of the jig being removed


The cardboard discs were a success, the masking tape was not. I ended up using duct tape instead.


It's getting there.


Since these pics were taken, I have been working on building the strength of the manifold up. I have added some strengthening webs, and will be building it up with more layers of glass. I'm spending a bit of time sanding it back to keep it looking tidy and trying to keep a good shape, the appearance factor for me is very important. I have to add more layers to the flange plate so I can get a decent thickness. When I'm happy with the thickness and added my thermostat housing, I will then apply the final layer of carbon fibre.

Just a note to anyone contemplating this, any sanding of the item or cutting of glass matting causes irritation to the skin, I am constantly itching. Taking this sort of job on needs some serious thought...
But what am I going to do? If you can't buy the parts you need, you just have to make them. I could pay someone, but it just wouldn't be the same...

[A112H]

Looking good Dave.

As for above, Dave, geezer, I wasn't having a dig and probably could have worded it better but it just seemed like the hard way to is all. I just think two flat plates of alloy and four straight tubes would have been easier and looked as good.
The reason behind me wanting someone else to do it would be that I do not have a welder and have never welded alloy even if I did, I have seen others attempts and it can get very ugly.
As you know, I like to do things a bit different and applaud you for the time and effort that has gone into this, looking forward to seeing it finished

[gaPhil]

Looks good Dave!

Bummer you can't set it up like this lol:

[A112H]

Mini inlet manifold is at the rear, wonder what engine that has in it? A mate has one with a Suzuki Swift GTi in it, fast little Mini

[75wagon]

That mini would be fitted with an after market cross flow head, it give them enough room to run twin webers, and also run four exhaust ports instead of the 3 they have standard.
I seriously don't know why someone would waste there time spending so much money on a motor that 3 main journals instead of 5. It just sounds like a disaster to me.
I used to own a Mini, they are a lot of fun to drive when they aren't broken down, sadly, that drive isn't often enough.

[75wagon]

Back on topic...

I've done a bit more today.
I've added another 6 layers of 450gram mat. The total flange thickness is now 10mm.






Finally released the manifold off the backing plate of the mould, I'm just happy that I didn't get a stick up.


I'm still going to need to trim the manifold back, to give me more clearance. The strut is too close for my liking.


Starting to look like a real manifold. I still need to add the thermostat housing and then lay up a layer of carbon fibre, but all is going well.

[Scorpma82]

This is some very clever work

I think you should cover the rocker cover in that carbon fibre wrap as well

[crystalmeths]

Nice work Dave , car is going to look great from what Ive seen so far mate , keep up the good work Dave .................. regards Chris

[astronturbo77]

I love your commitment, without sounding like a c^#t... How is the fuel goong to go with the fiberglass?

[75wagon]

I love your commitment, without sounding like a c^#t... How is the fuel goong to go with the fiberglass?

I've used vinylester resin, it's heat and chemical resistant.
When I have completed the manifold, I have to heat treat it. I have to cook it at 80 degrees for 1/2hr, then raise the temp to 95 degrees for another 1/2hr.
The guy who works in my local fibreglass supplies shop, also owns a manufacturing shop, he says he's made plenty of intake manifolds for cars.

car is going to look great from what Ive seen so far mate , keep up the good work Dave

Thanks Chris.
I hope it does turn out how I've planned, but I think it's going to take me quite a while to build this one, it's a lot bigger job then what I've ever done before. I'll just keep plugging away at it, one job at a time.


Dave...

[75wagon]

I'm certainly not the first to take the glass/carbon manifold on.
Carbon LS3 manifold at SEMA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucFpSLOi4dE

Same one in action
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg_HhIVY ... re=related

SR20 into Datsun 1600 shell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... sUacU&NR=1

[staytuned6336]

Impressive ! once you complete it do upload videos. cant wait to hear it rev

[Scorpma82]

quick question..........how much lighter is the new fibreglass manifold as opposed to the regular cast??

[75wagon]

I haven't weighed it, but it is quite considerable the difference.
I haven't been able to do anymore work on it in the last week or so either, as I have been working on my house (to keep the wife happy, so I continue working on the wagon).

Next time I'm playing with it, I'll try and get a weight difference for you (if I remember that is :/)

[Scorpma82]

yeah no stress....was just curious as i "was" contemplating the idea of a lil sports sedan track hack

[75wagon]

OK, so here's where I'm at, since my last post I've been back in the garage and been experimenting.
The video I posted before ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... sUacU&NR=1 ) gave me an idea that I followed up with, and tonight it was experiment time.

I bought a sheet of polystyrene the other day, and tonight I shaped up a part and tried to lay some resin over it.
It ended in a massive fail, the polystyrene melted.


So then I started trying things. Blue PVA (a fibreglass mould release agent which is not water based) didn't stop the melting.
I was talking to superscan811 the other night, and he was talking about PVA (yes Polyvinyl acetate) and we have a winner.
It sealed the polystyrene, and stopped the resin from melting it.

It's just about time to get serious with fibreglassing

PS, thanks Scott

[bruggz351]

This is a very intriguing thread.

Looking faward to more. Loving the motor bike carbs. Superscan first piqued my curiosity on bike carbs so I'm following this one closely.

[Scorpma82]

incurious on what else you could fibreglass, rocker cover,air cleaner.....are fibreglass panel legal for road use (guessing not)