Need help With Brake and suspension GH/GJ Sigma

[DanTurboLancer]

Hi all just have some questions i need some help with,

I have to pair of front struts,
Very similar but some slight differences,

and i want to use one pair, and looking to buy upgraded shocks and brakes,
so i would like to know which set are stronger, easiest to buy replacement parts for,
and upgrade parts for...

Both sets are out of LA Lancers

But i dont know if they are Factory Lancer Struts, Or if they are Sigma??


I will try to get some pics up, but i am having computer issues atm

Both Struts are the same Length, Diameter, (i will get actual measurements today)
Both are using Girlock single piston Calipers, and the Disks are the same Thickness and solid,
and the same Diameter (Which i also forgot to write down, but im pretty sure its 225mm)



Only differences I have noticed so far,
Are the base of one strut has a 3 bolt triangle pattern (that bolts down to the Ball-joint for the Lower control arm.)
And that has an adaptor plate around the stub axle and then the dust sheild is bolted to that plate.

Its Identification details are
WYLIE
4155412
9J0



The other struts are a 2 bolt base (for bolting down to Ball joint base)
Dont have the adaptor plate, The sheild bolts directly to the strut.

ID details are
WYLIE
Australia
4157940
06JU83



I will get accurate dimensions and will be taking the disks off to measure stub axles for any differences.
And i will try to get some pics up...

any help is appreciated
Cheers

[gaz914]

3-bolt are probably GH Sigma.
2-bolt are probably GJ Sigma.

Both use the same brakes.

cheers
Gaz

[camB]

Yep, 3 bolt removable above the ball joint is GH Sigma. See pics in DVSFIN's build thread... http://www.sigma-galant.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=3281

[DanTurboLancer]

Thanks for your help guys!


Ok I pulled both struts apart on the weekend,
and yes the strut and Stub axles are the same, as are the Disks and bearings.

But there were actually some small but significant differences between the different strut and the brakes.

I found that the "Adaptor Plate" on the 3 bolt based struts, actually holds the Brake caliper,and is bolted on by 4 evenly spaced bolts.
So it can be rotated to different positions if required.
Or replaced with a different Caliper mounting plate if required to suit bigger disks or different calipers.

However the 2 bolt Strut has a fixed caliper mount as part of the Strut.


EDIT - The other difference i forgot about between the struts.
The 2 bolt has an extra lip around the bottom spring retaining base,
where the 3 bolt doesnt ave this extra lip.
So the 3 bolt will allow the front wheel to come closer in toward the strut.


The other small difference was in the brake calipers and mounting brackets themselves.
The 3 bolt strut has calipers with "SIGMA II"
While the 2 bolt Strut has "SIGMA III"


Both calipers are almost identical, and the slave cylinders seem to be the same size (without actually pulling them out)
But The "SIGMA III" caliper is made to be slightly thicker, and has more meat with more strength webbing on the fingers that hold the outer Pad.
And the Caliper bracket is very slightly thicker also. (Photos will follow soon!)


So using the 3 bolt Strut with "SIGMA III" caliper might be the strongest and most reliable package??...





So having said that,
Would anyone be able to recommend an off the shelf brake package that will suit these Sigma struts?

I would like to have Ventillated disks, Possibly larger diameter,
And could either use the "SIGMA III" caliper (recoed), or use a larger set of calipers or even a dual piston caliper?

Must fit behnd a 15" wheel.
and im not looking to spend thousands...


Suggestions??


Cheers Dan

[amgis_obrut]

Hi all just have some questions i need some help with,


Its Identification details are
WYLIE
4155412
9J0



The other struts are a 2 bolt base (for bolting down to Ball joint base)
Dont have the adaptor plate, The sheild bolts directly to the strut.

ID details are
WYLIE
Australia
4157940
06JU83

going off the p/n the first struts are GH sedan / wagon green struts

and im guessing the second are GJ

the conversion thats on the G spec was pretty cheap and works well disc's are 290mm, i will be changing it in the future but will still use Ford XA bearing hubs

The combo i have now (2 piece XA falcon hud/disc wb caliper) requires the hub>disc mounting face to be machined down to reduce its thickness by 9mm to gain clearance between the disc and control arm , this mod requires the use of special wheel studs

The new combo i have in mind uses the falcon bearing hub and a mitsubishi 3000gt 314mm disc, using this disc means theres no need to machine the hub and no special wheel studs, though the center bore in the disc needs to be opened up from 69mm to 83mm and might also need the stud holes dilled out

I plan to use this setup with a VT 2 piston caliper and make my own bracket

[DanTurboLancer]

The new combo i have in mind uses the falcon bearing hub and a mitsubishi 3000gt 314mm disc, using this disc means theres no need to machine the hub and no special wheel studs, though the center bore in the disc needs to be opened up from 69mm to 83mm and might also need the stud holes dilled out

I plan to use this setup with a VT 2 piston caliper and make my own bracket

Well that sounds like a pretty good and easy set up.
I know zero about the 3000gt's, are they vented?
What stud pattern?

What Bore Master cylinder would be needed?
I have a 3/4"

Cheers Mick

[amgis_obrut]

Mid 94 onwards 3000gt disc's are Vented and are 314mm dia x 30mm thick and have a 5x114.3 pcd, only thing is i dont know if they will fit inside a 15" rim

Then again pre 5/94 disc's are 296mm, all other measurements are the same

Im using a 1" XF falcon m/c

Only thing is the XA falcon hubs can be tricky to find

I got mine from the ACT for $90pr

VT calipers are about $70pr from most wreckers

I dont know what the 3000gt discs are worth though I reckon you could do the conversion for >$500

[DanTurboLancer]

hmmm
So no other vented disks that fit the Sigma Stub axle and Bearings??

EDIT -

Thanks to Lean a quick search came up with this..

http://www.dba.com.au/product-search

[DanTurboLancer]

for those interested, here are the photos of the 2 different suspension and brake types...

The Two struts, 2 bolt base left and 3 bolt base right...



The 2 bolt base strut, has brake caliper mount cast to strut base...


SIGMA III Brakes...



The 3 bolt base strut, with removable bolt on caliper bracket...


SIGMA II caliper...



The 2 together...


The Stub axles are identical





May be abit hard to pick in the photos, but you may be able to spot the slight differences between the two different calipers,
the SIGMA III has abit more thickness and strength webbing






The caliper brackets have some extra thickness also...

[BAD-SIG]

Thanks for posting the photos, I keep reffering back to this thread to look at them to help me with my brake conversion.

I found that the Sigma III caliper and strut you have there are from a GN Sigma (I have one sitting in my driveway). Two interesting things to note:

1- there is no "vent" on the dust/back plate compared to the GH Sigma II struts (you can see it in the photos above).

2- you're actually comparing two struts from different sides there! The GH Sigma II one in the photo is from the passenger side and the GN Sigma III one is from the driver's side. The GN Sigma III front brakes have leading-mounted calipers while the GH Sigma III has trailing-mounted calipers.

[lance]

Hi Dan Looking at your picks..... The sigma 2 callipers that you have , do they have a date cast into the underside of the mounting slide a date ???? they look like the same callipers that l had . I damaged one of and tried to replace it with another sigma 2 calliper but found they were all as thick as your Sigma 3 calliper's. Every sigma 2 calliper that l found the mount was too thick like the sigma 3 .
I don't think this info will help you in any way but it may

Cheers Mark

[lance]

Hi Dan Looking at your picks..... The sigma 2 callipers that you have , do they have a date cast into the underside of the mounting slide a date ???? they look like the same callipers that l had . I damaged one of and tried to replace it with another sigma 2 calliper but found they were all as thick as your Sigma 3 calliper's. Every sigma 2 calliper that l found the mount was too thick like the sigma 3 .
I don't think this info will help you in any way but it may

Cheers Mark

[GLANT]

Need assistance!, will a sigma 3 caliper go on a sigma 2 mount? Im pissing around trying to set up brakes for my galant, and sigma 3 calipers dont fit gh struts (cast mount type, not green struts) gawd this is frustrating!

[BAD-SIG]

Hey Glant, I recently had the same problem. My original struts and brakes on my early model GE Sigma were very similar to the Galant ones on "green struts". So I thought since I had a GN Sigma i was wrecking sitting in my driveway, I would simply fit the discs, bearings and Sigma III calipers onto my GE Sigma green struts and I was told they would definately fit. While the discs, hubs and bearings do indeed fit, the caliper mounts are indeed different. Luckly I also had a pair of GH Sigma (Sigma II) struts with lowered springs and fairly new shocks, so I used those instead.

Now I thought about using the GN struts, swapping the top hats to the Sigma/Galant 3 bolt ones and fitting the GN Sigma two bolt steering knuckle to the GE Sigma 3 lower control arm and ball joint. I trial fitted one and the GN knuckle fit fine. But my only concern was the amount of positive camber I would have because the GE Sigma lower control arm (and Galants too) are a few mm shorter than the late Sigma ones. So I went for the easier option and fitted the GH struts and brakes I already had spare, which are the solid caliper mount bracket type (non green-strut).

The car now stops a lot better. The only difference I noticed is my early model GE Sigma uses the same brake master as the Galants, but with a small booster. So now with the bigger brakes, the pedal travels a little bit more until the brakes are engaged, but I don't mind it.

[GLANT]

So I should be able to fit, the sigma 2 caliper mount, with sigma 3 caliper? There appears no difference between them except the actual caliper mount itself? So if I can get sigma 2 mounts it should fix this?

Prob is wreckers have seperated all the stuff (struts here calipers there and mounts somewhere else), and I feel like im mixing and matching with no luck at this stage?. :-( at least ive got right strut and hub lol! In pics above I can now see holes on sigma 3 mount are closer to calipervthan on two....whats happening is mount hit disc, not allowing bolt holes to line up, its only 5 mm or so but still, thats just not gonna work... I bought these calipers today, and cant return them hope I havent done my cash, hope sigma 2 mounts will fix issue...fingers crossed!!

What size master are you using?

Also what sigma does 2 mounts c8me on? Only gh or gj too?

[GLANT]

Thanks for your help too!

[BAD-SIG]

Sorry if I confused you mate, I meant to say that unfortunately the only struts that I found that the Sigma III calipers will bolt onto is the stock struts that they came with. I spent an afternoon at the wreckers trying them all on. My GE Sigma green struts with the small Galant brakes would bolt up to the Sigma II calipers but NOT the Sigma III.

I'm sorry but from what I worked out, the only way out for you is to either get Sigma II calipers or struts compatible with Sigma III calipers...

[GLANT]

Shit!! So calipers are diff too?.. bloody hell! Doh! Cant mix a 3 caliper and two caliper mount...bloody sigmas!!

[BAD-SIG]

Yeah same problem I had. I agree that Sigma III calipers are better/stronger, but in the end I went with the GH Sigma II struts and calipers because it was easier for me.

[lance]

JUST be careful when selecting Sigma 11 Callipers from what ive seen they come in the two types .
The thicker when l was looking was easy to find . The Thinner one of the two l never found and that was the one l wonted .
This is were l mite be talking shit but .......
I feel that the thinner Sigma 11 is for green struts. ( this is my opinion )

[GLANT]

Gee thatll make it fun to buy from intestate. .

[lance]

Maybe the Scorpion callipers will it in.
People have told me that they may when l had my dilemma.

[Spac2]

What struts do I have?
Note: 3-bolt bottom, non-removable caliper mount, Sigma II calipers.

[BAD-SIG]

Those are GH Sigma struts I reckon, the non-green kind. What car is that? Lower control arms look really weird to me.

[Spac2]

It's a GA of questionable history...

Noob question: What's the difference between "green" and "non green" struts?

[BAD-SIG]

Green struts have a removable caliper mounting bracket that is held by four bolts. Non-green struts have the caliper mount as part of the strut.

[Spac2]

Thanks.

Do these calipers use the same pads as early Commodore? Or does it just look like it?

[Spac2]

Answering my own question: Yes, the Commodore pads are the same as GH/Sigma II : DB1085.