Extractors- Pacemaker vs others

[ddt]

Anyone out there have had experience with different branded extractors for the astron?
Ebay has 3 different brands for sale with Pacemakers significantly more expensive. What do you get for the extra money?

Also if i understand correctly; extractors help decrease exhaust back-pressure? does this cause the carby to suck harder? if so, does this create a leaner fuel-air mix?

[TVM006]

Id like to know the same thing!!!

[wheelnut]

pacies are mandrell bent with pipe over cone collectors the steel is better they fit properly the design works and most off the ebay ones are chinese crap.extractors help scavenge better which increases the engines ability to make power and decreaces back pressure.

[oldn64]

Not only the above BUT pacemaker actually put the R&D into the design whereas most of the other place have taken the pacies design and put it into there pipes. what this means is you get a pacies copy which is not identical nor lasts anywhere near as long. Options by three sets of the cheaper pipes or one of the pacies.....your choice

Cheers

[stealth]

how are thay a good design ?
there not tuned length ,the port pulsing is wrong
there just a set of cheap as pipes that make the gas go backwards,not designed at all
a proper set of extractors dont look anything like that ,sorry to say
cheers stealth

[Smithy]

Have a look at stealth's extractors for an astron into a lancer.Engineered to fit and would flow very well and look great too.

[GB_BB4C]

I would rather have a set of pacie's over the others. However the price they are on ebay if rediculous. I suggest go to your local exhaust shop and get a quote from them first.

[Sean]

how are thay a good design ?
there not tuned length ,the port pulsing is wrong
there just a set of cheap as pipes that make the gas go backwards,not designed at all
a proper set of extractors dont look anything like that ,sorry to say
cheers stealth

Remember when reading this that Stealth sells his own extractors, its like listening to a Ford salesmen tell you not to buy a Holden - it may be true, it may be about sales.

Now I'll declare that I have a vested interest in Pacemaker as I know quite a lot of people who work there, and I have 2 sets of Astron extractors myself (1 is yet to be fitted). They are a good product, and they do do a lot of R&D. Of the mass produced extractors on the market they are probably the best available.

Now in saying that it is undoubtedly possible to make a better set of extractors than Pacemaker do, especially one off work, as opposed to a production line environment.

Pacemaker have a good product, I doubt you'll regret making a purchase through one of their retailers if you choose to go that way. If you choose to go a different way, best of luck to you.

Sean

[amgis_obrut]

I have two sets of tri y cleveland extractors here one set from Pacemaker and the other from Castle headers

Pacies have very thin flange plates and just feel light and tinny the Castle headers are much heavier, both are the same design and bends look like they're done in the same way


I am also very skeptical about stealths headers, sure they look the goods but with no actual performance proof looks mean nothing

[astronturbo77]

there is a bit of an art with extractors, the pipes need to be made in the firing order to get the port pulsing working properly. if they were 4 into 2's number 1 pipe and number 3 pipe would have to be mated together so that once the gasses escape down number 1 pipe as they flow past number 3 they scavenge the gasses out of the other pipe. There is also a fine art to make serious horse power from the collector arrangement and how they are welded together the pipes have to be welded together so there is a cone shape in the inside of the pipe to help the gasses flow. bit hard to explain but on a set of proper extractors this is what makes them better and gets that few extra kw.

[amgis_obrut]

what he said ^^^^

length of primary pipes and dia of secondary pipe in relation to the primaries has a big effect on power and probably the most important factor of an exhaust

short primaries = good for higher revving engines, long primaries will help with low to mid range torque and good for engines with a power range to about 5500 rpm

Secondary pipe dia is an area of importance, if you have two pipes merging together the pipe dia needs to be bigger after that merge if primary and secondary pipe size is the same then the secondaries become a bottle neck


I think the port pulsing 1-4 and 2-3 is correct on the pacies for the length of the pipes

[cheaterparts]

there is a bit of an art with extractors, the pipes need to be made in the firing order to get the port pulsing working properly. if they were 4 into 2's number 1 pipe and number 3 pipe would have to be mated together so that once the gasses escape down number 1 pipe as they flow past number 3 they scavenge the gasses out of the other pipe. There is also a fine art to make serious horse power from the collector arrangement and how they are welded together the pipes have to be welded together so there is a cone shape in the inside of the pipe to help the gasses flow. bit hard to explain but on a set of proper extractors this is what makes them better and gets that few extra kw.

to be phased right its 1 - 4 and 2 -3 mated together
and yes dia of the pipe and the lenth must be right to time the pulses to work together
ie tuned pipes . of cause tuning of the pulses happen over a short part of the rev range
4 into 2 into 1 widen the tune range but make less power than a 4 into 1
the 4 into 1 will make better power but over a narrower range

I have no problems with Pacemaker they do suit a std to warm engine fine
when you build an engine with bigger cams more over lap custom pipes are the only way to go

I use 4 into 1 that I custom made to suit my engine - cam and revs that I use
in fact I think a new set is going to be made soon with bigger primarys ( 1 7/8 " dia )
and these will be dynoed back to back with what I use now

by the way the price of off the shelf are pretty good compaired to custom made
theres a lot of time with a tig and mandred bends. polishing inside and out as you go
and making all the pipes the same lenth. with them still fitting the car

[amgis_obrut]

im with cheater on the 1-4 2-3 pairing on the primaries

look at most ford holden 6 cyl extractors their firing order is 153624

Primaries are not mated as 1-5-3 and then 6-2-4 they're 1-3-2 then 5-6-4

From what i understand each exhaust pulse (pressure wave) creates its own vacuum within the pipe it traveled down, this vacuum travels back up to the exhaust valve and in this time the piston is starting the intake stroke but for a brief moment the exhaust valve is still open on intake and this is where the vacuum from the exhaust helps cylinder filling

So it you have two pressure waves that directly follow one another like a 1-3 pairing it would mean the pressure wave from 3 would interrupt the vacuum created by number 1

[stealth]

jeez guys maybe you should all do a bit more research !
there only one person there thats almost close to being right ! good work loran
but hay everyone entitled to there opinion ! so im not going to say whats right or wrong .
at the end of the day ,i never metioned my extractors i just said that pacemaker and any off the shelf pipes and not that well designed there just made to fit !
there probably better than the factory manifold but thats where the fun stops!
now ive said it before and will throw it out there again (just for the dummies)
ive got nothing to prove to you amgis or anyone else !
im not pushing my product onto you or anyone else ,you dont get a dyno sheet with any of the shelf parts !
and if you do want one you pay for the time and i will dyno it right in front of you ,then maybe you will be satisfyed but probably not
by the way the few parts that i do make for here are by request only im not trying to make money just help out those who want parts that you cant buy anywhere else!
cheers stealth

[amgis_obrut]

stealth if you claim something the be prepared to back it up or shut up

Pacemaker, DiFillipo and other exhaust manufactures spend big dollars on product r&d to make sure their produce works

Then theres you who claims their product is superior but has no proof or any customer feedback

Im sure with all your contacts you'd be able to get a free day on an engine dyno, one would assume that you have already tested them on an engine before saying they are better, of course you have nothing to prove to me because you HAVE NO PROOF


You say we should do some research, well then school me on how a 1-3 4-2 pairing arrangement is superior to a 1-4 3-2 pairing

Ever heard of NPS ??

[cheaterparts]

I am also very skeptical about stealths headers, sure they look the goods but with no actual performance proof looks mean nothing

you could be right however most of the making of a set of good custom headers is in the math before you even
cut a piece of tube
so as long as the sums are done right there is more than a fair chance of good performance
I have no dout that stealth has done his math

I know that my headers have been dynoed back to back with off the shelf pipes with gains - sorry I dont have the sheets
prob didn't even bother to print them out it is quite a while ago

as I said earlier on a std to warm engine the gains from pacemaker to a custom header isn't huge and the off the shelf is a lot cheaper

it when you start using larger cams with more over lap that custom headers come into there own and need to be made to suit the tune of the engine
take a std 2.6 cam there about a 25/65 cam which is 50 deg over lap adv and about 5 or 6 deg at 0.050 a set of headers
(almost any header) will do better than the std cast manifold
move on to a mild street cam 35/75 with 70 deg adv and about 25 deg @ 0.050 there is more time with both valves open for the low presure in the header to do some work - both removing the exhaust gasses and starting to draw through the induction before the piston is even to tdc ( from this point on off the shelf will not be a good as a custom set )
now large duration cams ( my new cam ) 50/87 in 86/51 ex now with 101 deg adv and 59 deg @ 0.050 this is a long time
for both valves to be open together custom headers are the only way to go and need to be tuned to the rev range the engine will be running around

so my sums and I'm not posting all the working out - for this cam and motor are 4 into 1 , 32" primarys ( 813 mm ) out of 1 7/8 tube
for a cam exhaust opening at 86 deg bbdc should tune for about 6500 and I beleve the max power for the engine
should be around 6700

[oldn64]

People can we play nice? May I suggest reading your posts before posting so that they are not personally based. We all have options and information to share Lets do it without pointing fingers. We are adults....?

As offered before off shelf is good for gains but if you are going to be doing a specialist car then you will need to start lookign at custom pipes, ( but if you are going this route you will have alot of other custom stuff on the car so will know this.) At the end of the day each person will customise their own car in their way. There is more than one way to skin a cat... Cheater has it on the money. Maths is most of the design. Then there is quality and fitment. Like all products there are good people who have reasonable prices based on work and others are rouges with over priced peaces of crap. Both Cheater and Stealth have good engineering practises and are willing to share most of their information. Maybe we need to reread the complete thread and then add more or leave it as it is. Any further personal attacks will result in the thread being locked. Please be mature.

Cheers

[amgis_obrut]

I made no personal attacks until one was laid on me and other people on this forum, I like others dont really like being referred to as "dummies"

Fair enough I said im skeptical about stealths headers just like im skeptical about procomp I have nothing against the Ken Family just procomp as a product and just like stealths headers AS A PRODUCT

When I first seen stealths headers I was genuinely interested in purchasing a set for my supercharged astron project, but when I asked what they were like compared to other headers on the market or if they had been tested to see if they out flowed the others I was basically told to shut up and my questions were removed, So stealth lost a sale because of his "i have nothing to prove" attitude

and its not just me that thinks this way

[TVM006]

ahh ok .. yep yep.. got it.
THE BEST ARE THE FACTORY ONES

"WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS, WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS"

[ted]

Whos the biggest guy here? haha you lot should calm down abit!! each to there own, everyone to there own opinion and stop with the personal attacks or im going to kick some ass!!! just chill!!!

[milotan]

Coltspeed built a dyno proven 180kw 2.6 running motec and quad throttle bodies ,they were using pacemaker extractors.
Thats good enough proof to me that pacemaker do the job for reasonable money.

[ted]

There you go!! they must be doing a decent job then!!! hahaha thats pretty mad out of a 2.6!!

[Draff]

One of the most interesting posts threads i have read for awhile.

I think with these groups that make the off the shelf style extractors they are aimed and a type of market. like cheater said they are most likely suited to STD to warm style motors/ street cars.
Even though I'm sure pacemaker have already done the math at their workshops to create better(things can always be improved on) extractors (EG: For race applications etc. and are more than capable of making them) the cost per unit would be higher to produce these putting it out of the reach of your every day Joe blogs.

Its all about picking your target market that you think you will gain the most sales from and making a product to suit them, pacemaker and other brands are most likely aiming for street cars/STD/Lightly worked motors as that's where the largest amount of sales would be coming from. and for what they are, and what you pay they are probably not bad bang for buck.

I think you would find its allot the same when it comes to the inlet manifold market etc. the larger companies would take the middle share of the market and leave the crazy custom jobs to the boutique performance workshops so to speak.
Thats just my take on it, these guys need to make a fair profit/high volume of sales to say in bussiness after all as selling headers is all they do they might as well go after the high sales areas.

[ddt]

wow, turned out to be a good thread -a lot of good info here. Sometimes you don't get the technical content and the variety of experience in these kind of threads unless there's a few sparks to get things going!

[GC75]

interesting thread really

[DanTurboLancer]

Hey guys I have had no real experience with Exhaust tuning, so i have no comment on this,
More a question.


I have just this week read an article inregard to this subject.
and in the article it mentioned
"Wave Sound"
realm "Harmonics"
"Engine resonance"
and "Wave Tuning"



This is a VERY rough explanation, which i dont fully understand but was interested.
quote -
there are two parts to a "Wave" Cycle,
the compressed gas molecules and those that are rarefied.
Thus, in each wave you have a compression zone, or node, of higher pressure and the rarefaction area, or anti-node,
of lower pressure.

If you get the exhaust piping length to place the anti-node at the exhaust valve at just the right time,
its lower pressure can stuff the combustion chamber with incoming charge and help suck out, or scavenge, spent gas.
Its a kind of ram effect....




Then for a better much more indepth explaination, they refer to a book
Design and Simulation of Four-Stroke Engines by Gordon P Blair.


I am going to chase this book up,
can anyone give me a suggestion for a better book to refer to?
Or an even better explaination of what i quoted?
and explain some of those terms?

[C_Fernance]

Another idea that i've heard of but never bothered to try myself. Probably only useful to those desperate for evey last HP.

Run a trumpet shaped exhaust tip. As the car is moving, especially at high speed, the trumpet shape helps to produce a lower pressure zone behind the exhaust pipe. This helps to suck to exhaust gases out of the exhaust.

[amgis_obrut]

dan that is what I was saying a few posts up its basically negative pressure supercharging or NPS

[cheaterparts]

This is a VERY rough explanation, which i dont fully understand but was interested.
quote -
there are two parts to a "Wave" Cycle,
the compressed gas molecules and those that are rarefied.
Thus, in each wave you have a compression zone, or node, of higher pressure and the rarefaction area, or anti-node,
of lower pressure.

If you get the exhaust piping length to place the anti-node at the exhaust valve at just the right time,
its lower pressure can stuff the combustion chamber with incoming charge and help suck out, or scavenge, spent gas.

there are some good books out there on the subject but you have the Idea
while you are on the subject of tuning exhuasts its worth susing out the inlet side as well

more pulse tuning for you and why quad setups work so well twin webers or quad TBs - single runners
just like the exhuast timing inlet lenths change the pulse timing

think on this inlet valve opens and a low presure wave runs up the runner away from the valve till it hits the open end of the runner. then a possitive presure wave runs back down the runner towards the valve
guess what, if it happens as the valve is opening you gain a small super charging effect

by the way a good guide or staring point for the lenth is ( 90" div by rev range/1000)
ie for 6000 rpm - 90" / 6 = 15 " ( 381 mm ) that may not be the best lenth but will be close

its all interesting stuff

[amgis_obrut]

chrysler cross ram comes to mind on that cheater