floppy timing chain!!!!

gkcigi · Post by **gkcigi** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:26 pm

hello all,
I recently bought a gk sigma, funny enough it is LPGKSE's sigma, was or is a member of this place. the car is ok for its age, all mods are satisfactory. the 1 thing he failed to tell me, or ( plainly lied about) , was that the long straight chain guide had been snapped, smashed, pounded, shaved, shredded in the sump! the oil was silver, its everywere! a fairly new built motor roooooted! He...or sum1 knew of the damage because all associated bolts and caps n covers weren't tightend properly and had sealant gooped everywere!!! dodgeeeeee!!! anyway, the chain chewd about 3mm into the side of the head up near the cam gear. its had the balance shafts removed, head and deck shaved, is there anyway I can reinstall a new chain guide set without the same thing happening???? I have orderd a whole new timing kit, ill check to see if the new chain is tighter, but if its the same, I dunno what to do! so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate any advice, cheers!

Post by **A112H** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:22 pm

Viagra?

cheaterparts · Post by **cheaterparts** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:57 pm

gkcigi wrote:hello all,
head and deck shaved, is there anyway I can reinstall a new chain guide set without the same thing happening???? I have orderd a whole new timing kit, ill check to see if the new chain is tighter, but if its the same, I dunno what to do! so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!! I appreciate any advice, cheers!

I don't know how much has been removed from head and deck but the tentioner works with oil presure
there is a plunger that pushes out of the oil pump that has a light spring to hold it went there is no oil presure ( engine not running )

when you remove metal from the head and/or deck that lets the plunger come out of the pump further under oil presure it's not a problem as a rule
but on start up this is where a lot of chain slap happens untill the oil presure rises
if enough is metal is removed the timing can slip as the chain gets so loose

any way I have removed 3.5 mm from the head and the fix to stop the chain jumping the cogs and spot any slap that can break guides is

when assembling the engine have the timing chain, guides and head fitted on a head gasket so you can measure the plunger but with the timing cover removed
measure how far the timing chain plunger is out of the pump then fit a spacer behind the plunger so it cant go back into the pump any further than it is assembled to this point
by the way if you can't make up a spacer yourself 9/16 or 14 mm flat washers will do the job just use as many as you need

hope that is some help

gkcigi · Post by **gkcigi** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:12 pm

hahahahaha I wish it were that simple!
I must also apologies for a portion of my rant, about being lied to, I'm sure if he had known he would have said something, sorry for finger pointing.

its just my bad luck I went looking for the noise and found messy metal everywhere! apparently after the rebuild it did the same thing, new timing kit was installed, only a few thousand K's and its done it again!! there must be a reason, is there a way to see if too much has been skimmed off the head and deck?? can I remove a link in my new chain? will that wreck the tensioner? how tight is too tight?

I jus read your reply cheater, the tensioner at rest is about 10.08mm ( the shiny chrome shaft bit) sticking out of the oil pump. the chain had polished off the bolt heads on the long straight guide. was an asshole to get out, had to drill a lil tiny hole and use a pin punch to start the threaded bit out! gouges in the head and timing case plus a channel scratched into the block! im hoping these washers are the answer!

I'm still guna give the Viagra a go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

schwing!

InsaneTD · Post by **InsaneTD** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:47 pm

I know this a bit off topic but can that autotensioner cause problems in the motor when it's failing?

cheaterparts · Post by **cheaterparts** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:54 am

gkcigi wrote: I jus read your reply cheater, the tensioner at rest is about 10.08mm ( the shiny chrome shaft bit) sticking out of the oil pump. the chain had polished off the bolt heads on the long straight guide. was an asshole to get out, had to drill a lil tiny hole and use a pin punch to start the threaded bit out! gouges in the head and timing case plus a channel scratched into the block! im hoping these washers are the answer!

it's a while ago since I did my engine up but I thought my spacer was 12 - 13 mm thick
I made up an aluminium spacer and have never had issues since

something else worth looking at if the head/block has been machined, every mm retards the cam timing about 1 deg or 2 crank degs
you may aready have a venier cam gear to put the cam timing back

I redrilled my cam gear so I could dail the cam back in

75glnt · Post by **75glnt** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:34 am

Hey cheater. So 3.5mm? Doesn't that convert to 140 thou? That's a big chunk! Lol

gkcigi · Post by **gkcigi** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:23 pm

Hmmmmmm I'm going to buy a heap of washers from Bunning's and have a test fit before I put in the new gear I got, is there a cave man way of checking for to little or too much tension in the chain on both sides, I haven't pulled the old chain off yet, with my fingers I can deflect the long slack side of timing chain about 20mm, ( the long straight guide is gone atm) will the tensioner tighten the whole chain or just the driven side??
apparently the head and deck were only skimmed, should still be in text book tolerance, I don't have 1 of the adjustable cam gears, are they hard to get or easy to drill like cheater has done? from memory when I put the engine to TDC as the crank marks lined up the inlet valve just closed for No 1 cylinder, is that good? or should it have closed a lil before that?
I think once I pack in the washers and install new chain and guides, mite just drive it easy for a while, then if its playing nice I'll drive it properly and just keep and ear out.
i'm crossing all my fingers this works, it would be a shame to pull down such a young rebuilt engine! ( famous last words)

geezer101 · Post by **geezer101** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:52 pm

20mm of slack? That is way too much.The tensioner will put a load on the side of the timing chain it makes contact with, then will preload the rest of the chain. You can use an adjustable cam sprocket but there are risks with these. If the fasteners come undone it will chew up the sprocket (they aren't cheap to buy). The alternative of a drilled sprocket is cheaper and more durable as the mounting bolt and dowel on the cam are the only things keeping it from moving (I'm pretty sure you can still get them). You won't be getting the best out of the engine until you sort out the tensioner issue and the cam timing being retarded. Get these sorted out and a good tune up and it will feel a whole lot more responsive.

cheaterparts · Post by **cheaterparts** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:55 pm

geezer101 wrote:The alternative of a drilled sprocket is cheaper and more durable as the mounting bolt and dowel on the cam are the only things keeping it from moving (I'm pretty sure you can still get them).

Just like these ones

these are the gears I redrill , quite a few punters on the site already use them - I may even have some drilled atm I would have to look
but I still have the specs and the rotary table is always setup to do this wok

cheaterparts · Post by **cheaterparts** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:02 pm

75glnt wrote:Hey cheater. So 3.5mm? Doesn't that convert to 140 thou? That's a big chunk! Lol

yes the things we do just to get some more comp it was running 11.3:1 and it needed more - every thing runs pretty close inside the head with the cam it runs the valve to piston clearance is 0.060" the pistons needed some tickling to get that much

the fun part is that I can do almost all of the machining as home

75glnt · Post by **75glnt** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:03 pm

Wish I had half that equipment! Lol

geezer101 · Post by **geezer101** » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:03 pm

^don't we all...

Just need to know how to use it as well, then we're set.

gkcigi · Post by **gkcigi** » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:16 pm

Success!!!! so far, all the new gear is in, packed about 11mm in the tensioner hole, makes no chain noise on start up or when driving, I've done about 600km since the repair, I'm not leaking oil or water (bonus) I'm still yet to give it a thrashing , but everything seems to be working well, the only thing I have noticed, the oil pressure bumps up to about 60psi when cold, when the engine gets to temp, it drops back to about 20psi at idle, and climbs as the revs increase, it didn't do that before, but I cant fault the engine, it seems to be happy now!

a big thanks to everyone who offered advice, I was a bit put off doing it myself, but it works and I'm stoked!

Dion383stroker · Post by **Dion383stroker** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 7:11 pm

cheaterparts wrote:
geezer101 wrote:The alternative of a drilled sprocket is cheaper and more durable as the mounting bolt and dowel on the cam are the only things keeping it from moving (I'm pretty sure you can still get them).

Just like these ones

these are the gears I redrill , quite a few punters on the site already use them - I may even have some drilled atm I would have to look
but I still have the specs and the rotary table is always setup to do this wok[/quote,

Do you still make these redrilled cam gears?

Sigma-galant.com

floppy timing chain!!!!

floppy timing chain!!!!

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