Urgent help - water leaking from around head gasket

[gaPhil]

Recently got the head of my engine reconditioned. They skimmed the face taking the minimum off.

Head was reinstalled with new head gasket and torqued. Motor was run for a few seconds without coolant and seemed to idle ok.

Today I installed the radiator, upon putting water in, it seemed to basically freeflow from around the exhaust side of the head gasket, with a dribble under each exhaust port.

Has anyone had or heard of this problem??

[75wagon]

It's got me?

I've put heaps of these heads on before, including helping you do this one. I've never had this problem before.

Anyone got any suggestions?

Dave...

[Superscan811]

Did you remove the studs?

From memory, some of the 4G32 stud holes go all the way through to the water jacket.

If the studs were removed and replaced, you may have to silicone/Locktite them in to stop the water leaking past the threads.


Cheers.

[gaPhil]

I'm not sure which studs you mean, the head was taken and off and taken into a shop to get reco'd. Other then that nothing was removed.
The face of the head was skimmed but the block was just cleaned up. I did not check it with a straight edge though.

A google search hasn't turned up too much. Except that it may either be the head was not torqued down properly (pretty certain it was), the block is warped.

I double checked it this morning to make sure it was the head gasket and not just running around it, but it is.

The flow is quite fast too, only takes a minute or so to drain out. There seems to be a small stream approximately under each exhaust port.

Not quite sure what the next step i should take. I'm thinking tonight i might try running it without coolant for a little bit and recheck the torque.

The next step will be taking the head off and checking the face of the block.

Bit of a kick in the guts, was hoping to have it running this week.

[Superscan811]

The studs I'm talking about are the ones that hold the inlet and exhaust manifolds to the head.
Sometimes they are removed to allow the head to be skimmed, especially the bottom exhaust ones, otherwise the cutter may hit them.

Check with whoever skimmed the head.
If it was, it's just a simple job to drain the water, remove the studs, dry the hole, apply liberal amounts of some silicone or Loktite studlock to the stud, screw them back in and bolt it together.
You COULD also do this a few studs at a time so you don't have to fully remove the manifolds, but if you want to be sure, I'd remove the manifolds as well.

When you refill the radiator, after you have sealed them up, leave the radiator cap on loose.

Cheers.

[gaPhil]

Oh ok, thanks for that. I'll double check if they were all removed but some were already missing off the head when I first took it off so I replaced these.

Would it allow water to flow in between the head and block though?

[gaPhil]

I just rang up the place where the head was done and he seems to think that the studs are likely, as they do intersect water galleries.

and thinking about it, the flow of water is concentrated on where those studs are, underneath the exhaust ports and nowhere else.

Another option is the head gasket was put on upside down, but i don't think that's the case.

What sort of gasket, loc tight should i be using on the studs?

[75wagon]

Well, I've been over and had a look for myself.
Yes the bottom studs are loose, but that is not the problem.

The problem is, it's an early model block with a late model head. The head is wider then the block.
The head must be a late model import chain drive head as it has a port in the front for what I thought was an air pump. It leads to a gallery along the exhaust side of the head, and that gallery ports into each exhaust port.
What I can't work out, is why there is water getting into this area of the head?

On conclusion, the head is coming back off, and I'm going to look into the best way to block off the source of the water.

[77GDWAGON]

early head gasket may have extra holes that end up in the pollution pump exhaust gallery of the later model head. What head gasket did u use? AJ690 or BD010

[77GDWAGON]

Early block on exhaust side has extra water galleries just looked at a gregories, u probaly have the early head gasket on now. U will need the later head gasket to block off these water galleries.

[75wagon]

The head is now off and at my place.
What we have found is that the early model head gasket is narrower on the exhaust side.

Early block on exhaust side has extra water galleries just looked at a gregories, u probaly have the early head gasket on now. U will need the later head gasket to block off these water galleries

Yeah, fair enough, but that still doesn't explain why there's coolant in an area that (to me) shouldn't be there.

I'm going to machine up some gallery block off plugs. 1 for the main input from the front of the head input into the gallery, and 4 for the exhaust ports. I'll take pics as I'm doing them.

If nothing else, it'll stop the problem from happening again.

[davetrees]

Just caught up with this ... been away firefighting the last week.

I thought when I looked at the pics in the other thread that it was a "late" motor, because the oil filler hole is towards the back of the rocker cover rather than the front.

GD heads are "wide" too .... my old motor had one.

You should just have to use the correct head gasket (a GD one - 125mm wide - gasket no. BD010) rather than the GA/GB one (115mm wide - gasket no. AJ690)

DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES RUN THE MOTOR WITHOUT WATER, EVEN BRIEFLY !

Also, the guy that built my new motor advised that it's best to use straight water rather than coolant initially until you have run the motor in (300-400km) so that the gasket "bakes" properly onto the head & block. Coolant is "slippery" and more likely to leak, and can prevent the headgasket surfaces sealing properly. Once it has been run in and been through a few heating/cooling cycles, re-torque the head & fill with coolant.

[geezer101]

Also, the guy that built my new motor advised that it's best to use straight water rather than coolant initially until you have run the motor in (300-400km) so that the gasket "bakes" properly onto the head & block. Coolant is "slippery" and more likely to leak, and can prevent the headgasket surfaces sealing properly. Once it has been run in and been through a few heating/cooling cycles, re-torque the head & fill with coolant.

This sounds like real common sense, wonder why I haven't heard of doing this to bed in a new head gasket? Learnin' sumpin new every day. btw, we are thankful of guys like you putting your lives on the line to protect others. It's a tough job and we sometimes become detached from what we see on TV and the reality of what is involved in our emergency services and the people who work within them.

[davetrees]

He's one of those "old school" semi-retired mechanics that has lots of little tips & tricks he has learned over the years.

.... and thanks for the good wishes although we are trained to not put our lives on the line ! If you Google "Blue Rag Range" you'll see where I have been the last week ... awesome scenery (when the smoke lifts, anyway)

[gaPhil]

Cheers Davetrees,

I noticed the oil filler spot too, but thought it was just the rocker cover.

The wider head gasket will cover the head side completely, but the underside will still be partially exposed because the face of the block in narrower.

It was a 'running' motor when i bought it. So i assume that the passage was blocked off somehow. When the head was reco'd they must of unblocked it leading to this problem.

I still cant understand why or how coolant would be mixing with exhaust gas through the EGR ports in the head.

[davetrees]

I still cant understand why or how coolant would be mixing with exhaust gas through the EGR ports in the head.

Maybe the head has gone a bit soft/porous (alloy can do that) and they have taken a little too much off ? Sounds like you need to get the head pressure tested ....

[davetrees]

...

[75wagon]

Yes there was a problem with the width of the headgasket.
Yes, Phil does have a wider one there.

It is a late head, and I guess, much later then anything that was standard on any Australian model fitted with this model. Have a look at the pic, what is the large connection on the front right of the head for? I assumed it was an air pump like they used to have on the VK Commodores so they met emissions controls, by pumping outside air into the exhaust port, so the reading at the rear tailpipe is diluted.


As Phil has stated, the head is wider then the block, so fitting the wider head gasket will cover the bottom of the head, but it wont be supported by the block from underneath.
The other problem is obviously, that the coolant track is connected to this extra scallop/track (whatever you want to call it) in the wider part of the head.

From talking to the fitters at my work today, I have been advised to not bother machining up plugs to fill the ports, but to use that need-able steel putty instead (of which I have some here).

Maybe the head has gone a bit soft/porous (alloy can do that) and they have taken a little too much off ? Either that, or there is a crack in the head somewhere. Sounds like you need to get the head pressure tested ....

They only took the minimum off just to true up the face. There appears to be plenty of head left.

I did notice when we removed the head, that the old gasket had swelling along the same point as we are having problems with. But as I assumed that the port was not coolant related, didn't think any more of it.

Also, the guy that built my new motor advised that it's best to use straight water rather than coolant initially until you have run the motor in (300-400km) so that the gasket "bakes" properly onto the head & block

Yep, I always do that.

Dave...

[davetrees]

Never seen one like that before ! Wonder what it's out of originally ? Very weird. Could even be something out of an old Hyundai or something ? They used a version of the 4G32.

Mine's a late model JDM Lancer engine, but doesn't have that on it (it does have some additional holes about the exhaust ports, blocked with bolts .... must have had some Jap emissions gear of some sort on it). No difference in water galleries though, and would fit straight on to the normal Australian block (usually only the GC? and GD heads are wider ... early & blocks are the same & will take either the 115mm or 125mm head as far as I know).

The fact that the previous headgasket was swelling should have been a giveaway that something was amiss, I guess ......

Personally, I'd get another "normal" head to match the block and start again .... or find the matching block !

[75wagon]

Never seen one like that before ! Wonder what it's out of originally ? Very weird. Could even be something out of an old Hyundai or something ? They used a version of the 4G32.

That's what I was thinking. Was the Hyundai Pony rear drive though?

The fact that the previous headgasket was swelling should have been a giveaway that something was amiss, I guess ......

Everyone's a genius in hindsight.

Personally, I'd get another "normal" head to match the block and start again .... or find the matching block !

Phil's now paid to get this one fixed up, I'll do my best to make it operable.

It should be right, I'm just about to go out and work on it, I'll take some pics of it as I do.

[77GDWAGON]

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[siggyloverWA]

...by pumping outside air into the exhaust port, so the reading at the rear tailpipe is diluted.

not 100%, the air is introduced to allow combustion of unburnt hydrocarbons... i wish i had seen this thread sooner, i couldve told you about the EGR channel and needing to block the holes, i used bits of metal rod and sillicone when i had to block mine

[75wagon]

i wish i had seen this thread sooner, i couldve told you about the EGR channel and needing to block the holes

I always knew that had to be done (the ones in the exhaust ports anyway).

i used bits of metal rod and sillicone when i had to block mine

That was exactly the way I was going to it, until I was talked into using the 2 part epoxy needable steel.

the air is introduced to allow combustion of unburnt hydrocarbons

The air is introduced into the exhaust ports, so after combustion has already happened.I doesn't matter anyway, The important thing is, they needed filling, and they are now filled.

The job is done, I ground out all the ports to expose fresh alloy. I filled all 4 holes with the epoxy, and smoothed them off inside with careful use of my die grinder.
Hopefully this should be the end of the water feature problem.

[davetrees]

So what's it out of ? A US-spec car ?

[gaPhil]

Cheers Dave, your a legend!

[gaPhil]

That air pump setup is plain weird.

[geezer101]

Pic of the engine bay is a dead give away - left hand drive. Something out of a US model - RaptorReed has one like it in his thread. The concept was to 'dilute' the exhaust gases as they exited the engine (when you did an EGO test it showed the emissions were lower). What they actually did - nothing, other than pump air out throught the exhaust system. Early model Ford Lasers had this junk fitted to them - nearly every one you see now has had the pump removed and the pipes cut and crushed closed.

[77GDWAGON]

So what's it out of ? A US-spec car ?

US Dodge Colt
Japan even had this set up on some models

[davetrees]

Everyone's a genius in hindsight

Indeed .... been down that road many times

[siggyloverWA]

the air is introduced to allow combustion of unburnt hydrocarbons

The air is introduced into the exhaust ports, so after combustion has already happened.I doesn't matter anyway, The important thing is, they needed filling, and they are now filled.

[/quote]

yep, after combustion has happened in the cylinder head there are unburned and partially burned hydrocarbons still available but a shortage of oxygen with which to combust them, the air injection system allows them to be burnt off in the exhaust pipe.. i know it doesnt matter, im just one of those people