TR11KY going to E85

[TR11KY]

Yep im serious. Just soak that in a minute coz even im shuddering at the thought.



Ive decided now is the perfect time to convert TR11KY to run E85. Ive been reading and talking E85 with a few people and checking through abundant resources on it. A mate Guilt Toy has had much success as has many others now. But so far as i can tell no examples of older rides yet??? SO f**k it im gunna pave the way. Thats if no one is secretly already doing it that is....

Here's the plan so far:

Remove fuel tank and refit the gooseneck with vapour lock cap, check internal condition and possibly have it teflon coated or treated against rust.

Re-run the lines for fuel in braided rubber with replacement lines for factory rails under body up to 6mm feed and return.

Tank vapour lock system to be checked and upgraded

Replace fuel pump with bosch 044 hp, and walbro 255 lift pump, probably in tank. Retain 2L surge unit in boot but seal off into corner compartment to reduce fumes.

Replace injectors with 1040cc denso injectors and fuel rail fixing points to be modified slightly for better sit.

Retain Malpassi regulator, fit wideband lambda sensor for 02. retain existing distributor setup if i can.

Swap to a synthetic blend oil and finalise my airbox setup


Thats it. Sounds so simple now, but i bet my left nut sh*t doesnt go that smoothly.

[ted]

E85 is brilliant stuff!!! as long as its not in the tank to long and is no where near any rubber!! run steel fuel lines or the plastic fuel lines commonly seen in late model commodores and falcons.

[colta51]

just wondering anyone no if this fuel wood work in a 2stroke motor?

[Billsy]

ive run E85 in several turbo cars... when tuned for it its great. more timing, more boost, more power, more torque, more noise, more thirsty. just more more more

itll run on a 2stroke if its tuned for it and you find some oil thats suitable for solution without settling out.

[turbosigma]

Ran it for 4 months till the powers that be removed it.

Only problem with it - if you can call it a problem - had to go back to stock boost as the 550cc where to small (new 044 and 1000cc sitting on the shelf waiting to go in).
Had new lines in when I went efi - and I don't think you will have any problem with the tank, the GH's tank has been unpainted for years.

Apart from that - it ran smother - felt like it would rev up quicker - and cheaper 98c to $1.08 compared to $1.50 ish at the time - oh, and it smells good too.
I'm hoping now that the e85 commodore is out, it will be back soon.

And yes, get ya self a good wideband. I run a Tech Edge ............... pic



Edit - another gizmo I'm planning on getting due to the them mixing the summer/winter blends - zeitronix

[colta51]

itll run on a 2stroke if its tuned for it and you find some oil thats suitable for solution without settling out.

cheers i might giv it a go..? and i only use penrite oils (sin power) as thay are australian made and blended!

[Billsy]

what 2 stroke are we talking about with programmable EFI? youll ned to add around 30-40% more fuel, and may have to adjust your oil mixtures aswell. if its not a junker lawnmower id do a bit of research on it first.

oh and guys, you can buy E85 at several outlets across adelaide. theres a few united(i think) with it. i go to the one on tappleys hill rd, just down from port rd

[mic_77]

Been there done that changed the whole car the torque difference was huge but rethink your fuel pumps and injectors I maxed out my 880cc's at 286kw I was also running 2 044 pumps as you need a lot more pump than you think and a lean out is worth a lot more than a couple of hundred bucks.


cheers Mic

[metaldrift]

With your mower, unless it has "Can be used with ethanol fuel" (either on mower or in instruction book) I wouldn't be putting it in it, You know the Australian goverment recomended NOT using any ethanol blend (including E10) in lawn mowers, However some newer models are built to be able to.
I work in the fuel industry, I wouldn't recomend ethanol for cars not used often as the fuel does seperate if left sitting, and getting ur tank relined with older cars is a good idea as ethanol blends can eat metal, hence why all fuel stations that had older tanks (15years +) where required to get them dug out and new tanks put in too carry ethanol blends. Good luck with it though, hope it works out for you.

[TR11KY]

mic, billsy and turbosigma guys i aim this at you as you know what im saying here. No insult to the others but theres so much hype n talk its good to know we have some experience here.

Ok the injectors you guys ran were what ohm rating??? the key is in the tune and the ohm rating of the injectors to ensure it will run the right amount of fuel. I'm going to leave the 550's in (once i check what their specs are that is) go for tune then replace if needed. I keep telling my guy the sigma is a thristy car and it will need bigger injectors.

Mic what 880cc injector did you run and what was the ohm rating?

I have since been told rubber lines and all the bs about pumps is not something to stress on. Ethanol cleans them yes but it doesnt eat them anymore than anything else. The new commodore out yep has rubber lines. I now accrodingly plan to run one single high pressure pump with my facet lift pump. Provided it's 1000hp pump im happy as the sigma should see just under 500hp and even with E85 theres still flow to burn. I'm still going to replace a few rubber lines with braid on high pressure in particular, and i plan to reinstall the charcoal cannister as previously discussed. factory fuel rail is going to need more bracing than current set up too. Do that before it goes away to chrome. Surge tanks i.m keeping basically as is.

Ive also since found out it will stay in the tank fine provided it's properly sealed. caution with water is warranted but alot of hype there too. I will be keeping an eye on that front.

What compression were you guys running and how did you find cold start up? again alot of chatter about this too.

I'm boosting mine from 8.2:1 to 8.5:1 i think.

[mic_77]

I will get back to you in regards to the injectors. With the comp ratio I had 10:1 and my new motor will have 11:1 don't be scared with e85 just make sure your tuner is competent with this type of fuel. As for fuel lines I had braid for the whole lot I did have one o-ring in a -8 fitting let go it was an easy fix. I do not know if e85 had anything to do with this but it may have contributed to the o-rings early demise.


cheers Mic

[Billsy]

the impedance of the injectors is irrelevant. low impedance injectors supposedly have a smaller "dead" time compared to high impedance but in the end it doesn't really matter.
if your ecu can only run high impedance (many OEM mostly) thats what your stuck with if it can run both then it doesn't matter (most ecus have dead time compensation)
depending on the power level your chasing will determine what injectors you want to use, if you go too big its more difficult to get the tune perfect and can have idle and fuel consumption issues in certain scenarios.
i have 800cc low imp injectors and they will get me my target of 400rwhp on pump fuel, but i think they'll run out of flow with E85

the fuel line issue comes down to the TYPE of rubber lines, i have used some that started to piss fuel everywhere after 3 months of E85, and some lines that arent affected at all.
when you buy the line make sure its Ethanol approved otherwise in time it will go hard and brittle and inevitably leak.. trust me on this

compression isnt really worth considering here, i ran 7.4:1 and the new engine is 8:1.
but bear in mind that the burn rate of ethanol is not consistent as fuel is so your timing map will need more tapering off at high rpm as the ethanol becomes more volatile at high rpm, but you can crank in much more timing at lower RPM. (just dont push too hard in midrange, quite a few subaru people have broken rods when tuning E85 as you can push the cyl pressure much higher than regular fuel)
On my subaru, the timing required advancement upto around 5000 and from about 5500-8000 i had to pull timing out as cyl pressure was getting excessive and the torque output didn't change with 4 degrees removed (although it wasnt detonating it came very close to it)

cold start is fine, youll just need to richen it up a bit more than with fuel. and you'll get LOTS of condensation out the back as it condenses into water after it burns

[TR11KY]

thanks guys both of you were extremely helpful.

Billsy yep ive looked into type of rubber lines, wont be braiding though mic. The guys at Pit Crew have been very helpful, leaning me towards a set up capable of methanol if i wanted. Im in the process now of applying treatment to the fuel tank as well as retrofitting an unleaded filler neck off an EL Falcon wagon.
Ive since sorted out the confusion over injector imepdance and yup it was based on a factory ecu tune so he was not informed on my ecu. Ive calculated injector size of 1100cc per injector so i'm scaling back to 1000cc injector and i dare say that could be my limiting factor. The efi guys are confident these are a very tuneable injector across the range. Im ignoring the other mates that keep saying run my 550's coz i know they wont even go close to handling the flow. Just coz 550's will see a skyline through to the same horsepower doesnt mean the sigma is the same. I keep telling them for their 2.6L they use 6 cylinders, 6 injectors. I use 4 cylinders with 4 injectors. its basic maths that i'm straight away 30% larger injector...
Im undecided at this stage if im running one bosche 044 or the pierberg merc pump. The 044 is the plan for now, if it's not up to task i'll know quickly so swap it out but i belive it will be.
half inch alloy line into the existing cradles, 8mm return and 6mm breather line is the plan. I have just removed the existing lines as im stripping the entire undercarriage for clean up and refitting of the new lines.

your info on compression and tuning is helpful too mate. I will keep that in mind when i discuss with the tuner. I'm still settling on the tuner as i have couple of options one being much more experienced than the other though.

[mic_77]

If you are still using standard rods the 1000s should see you to there limit you will need to rethink the pumps imo you will need 2 o44s to be on the safe side you don't want a lean out and if you shop around you can get them for under 200 each easily. How much power did you want to make? oh and watch for boost spikes or overboosting I could not control boost in my car when I changed to e85 it prompted a quick change of wastegate location.


cheers Mic

[turbosigma]

If you are still using standard rods the 1000s should see you to there limit you will need to rethink the pumps imo you will need 2 o44s to be on the safe side you don't want a lean out and if you shop around you can get them for under 200 each easily.
cheers Mic

Nice spanner in the works there mic.
Planed one 044 as well, going on there rated at 600 to 700 hp -30% for the e85 should still give 400hp at the engine(I hope).

As for the injectors if you dont have them yet TR11KY, I got - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AFI-Fuel ... ccessories There Delphi/Rochester
There in now, 98 may be a bitch at idle but e85 will be fine.

As for a pump for the GK http://fuelab.com/products/prodigy-fuel-pumps Never liked the idea of twin pumps and not hear anything bad about them yet.


Edit:- on the way - http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... MEWAX%3AIT

[mic_77]

When I did the changeover I was told by my tuner to put another pump in it before he would tune it he has tuned a lot of cars on this fuel and I trust his opinion as he has the runs on the board. This is only a precaution but for a few hundred dollars for an extra pump set-up that is a lot cheaper than building a new bottom end. Each to there own


cheers Mic

[TR11KY]

Ok so it got the better of me i've gone checking my own figures and im now making more checks. The single 044 flow's 200L per hour at 5bar (72psi) the pierberg does 300L/hr at 5 bar (72psi). Depending on where you read about it some are saying the 044 will push 330L/hr?? The more i look the less confidence i have in my efi guy telling me the 044 is up to the task. Feel like im going backwards!! ARGHHH

To feed my 1166cc and 456lb/hr volume at say 72psi im looking at 300L/hr so i'm looking for a single pump capable of handling the task. Turbosigma huge help mate that Prodigy pump looks to do the job perfectly.

I also need to check my low pressure lift pump to ensure the surge tank wont run dry im now thinking the facet can go and install a holley blue to be sure it's up to the task.

This is critical so i'm rechecking the figures from start to finish.




Im only running 18psi boost mic so im not sure bout boost spikes on factory wastegate but it will be plummbed back into exhaust differently if at all. What exactly did you find caused it??? Did you get new wastegate or just repositioned factory gate?

[mic_77]

No my manifold is custom with a tial 44mm gate located at the collector I was only running 18psi for the first run up and it just went through the roof we played with the e-boost a bit but it did nothing once we started to rev it the boost was uncontrollable so it was straight of the dyno. I had the turbo off the next morning and we relocated the wastegate to the exhaust housing still with a screamer pipe and it was back on the dyno that afternoon and we instantly had control of the boost. It has something to do with the amount of gasses that come from the e85 I do not know the reason or any of the technical side of it but if I change to a fuel like roo16 I can change it back to the original wastegate location and not have an issue.


cheers Mic

[Billsy]

the reason you had boost control problems is the E85 burns and creates a fair bit more exhaust flow than regular/race fuels.
this is why ive chosen a dirty big turbo aswell, because i reckon ill have the ex flow to spool it.

i plan on running a single bosch 044 on mine, and ive got a bosch 910 as a lift pump to fill the surge tank.
i wonder why your changing the filler neck though, you dont need a restrictor in the neck anymore, not even for compliance on imports (atleast here in sa)

ive gone over my flow charts and i think that my injectors WILL get me 300kw/400HP at the treads at 75 PSI (50 base + 25PSI boost) with E85 and a bit of overhead.

i convinced a mate to run E85 in his track car on the weekend, he cant believe the stuff. with a stock EJ20 he added 8 degrees timing over a tune for 102 octane race fuel and it went like stink at 22PSI.
although i think he added a bit much as the turbo went blue from heat, but there was NO detonation.
its easy to push the engine past its MBT and just create massive heat which i think he did. but im trying to convince him to hit the dyno to suss it properly

[dvsfin]

the the boost spiking problem just sounds like you need a bigger gate. Ofcourse position does make a difference, but only to an extent

[mic_77]

It was all the position with e85. I have a 44mm tial gate and the turbo exhaust side is a 1.00 with a P trim wheel.


cheers Mic

[TR11KY]

billsy the main reason for the replacement of the filler neck is to seal the tank properly. The leaded tank cap is ok but i wanted typicalt unleaded screw cap with overflow and ventilation to the top. From all my investigations the key to keeping e85 in the tank is to ensure it's air tight then like any other fuel it will last as they could be expected to.


my concern heat wise is making sure the engine oil temps when running are correct. If the much colder fuel results in much colder engine running temps the oil may go milky. It's critical that i get the oil temp, coolant temps correct. Exhaust gas temps and turbo are less of a concern to me as i'm sticking to 18psi boost with gt35R which if im right has a 0.86 rear? I plan to use the factory wastegate but i'm thinking about running it's own dedicated pipe along side the exhaust to the rear.
All depends on if i keep the factory exhaust manifold or not.

[Billsy]

ah yep, i didnt think much about the sealing of the cap. the old ones are a bit dodge.
although I dont think youll have any problems with the engine running cold.

[TR11KY]

i hope not mate, i will find out once i start driving her i spose.

could someone tell me why is it everytime i get a free day to work on the car it decides to be like 40deg!!!! i miss my old airconditioned shed so much right now...

[75wagon]

i miss my old airconditioned shed so much right now...

What?
Are you serious?
You were way too spoiled, time for a reality check...

Dave...

[Superscan811]

i miss my old airconditioned shed so much right now...

What?
Are you serious?
You were way too spoiled, time for a reality check...

Dave...

What do you mean?
I'm currently organizing an aircon for my man-cave...

[75wagon]

You blokes need to take a spoonful of cement and harden the F___ up.

Dave...

[Billsy]

dave im getting Aircon for my shed aswell. ive wasted 2 days in the last week that i could have been building greatness (or pissing round wasting time )

[TR11KY]

yeah guys my shed in the house i sold was a granny flat once so it had lino floor and all insulated so when i added an old window ratler air con it became the sickest man cave ever... I worked anytime i wanted where even as we speak now im waiting for the 39deg day to cool down so i can go work on her! arghh

but dont get me wrong dave i wont be sooking in winter as it's rug up n get on with it. I love the sheer size of this shed, it's fuggin tops!

[75wagon]

TR11KY, when are you coming to check out my man cave. It doesn't need an aircon and it even has lake views...
I planned it well, it has 3 garage doors, 2 in the front, 1 in the back. It's perfect for tuning cars and stuff, the flow through of air is something that must been experienced to be appreciated.
Are you coming to MAD DAY this Sunday?

Dave...