LSD

This section is for 1976 to 1987 Chrysler/Mitsubishi/Colt Galant/Sigma/Lonsdale.
User avatar
amgis_obrut
Posts: 1742
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:26 pm
Location: Orient Point NSW

Re: LSD

Post by amgis_obrut »

turbogj260 wrote:hilux diffs are 8mm longer overall length than a sigma diff ( Using a GJ diff as a example ) they are 31 spline and can get pretty much any ratio avail. Currently converting my Gj rear end to Hilux. Re-drilled for 4 stud and using R31 disk brakes.

Hilux is 30 spline

On another note isnt the sigma borgy a 6.75" diff that has 23 splines and 8 bolts on the hat??

well if so this might come in handy
http://www.dragtimes.com/parts/Ford-6-7 ... 33342.html
GH Sigma, 16" Mesh wheels, sports steering wheel and a V8 exhaust
User avatar
luke77
Posts: 107
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:41 pm
Location: Ballarat, VIC

Re: LSD

Post by luke77 »

I had hilux in mind, but the other day at work we had a mid-late 90's Mits Delica Turbo Diesel in at work. I stuck my head under it to have a look around and noticed a couple of things of interest. Delica run BIG rear disc brakes (would need 15" rims), the diff is a large diameter (don't ask, I didn't measure) and have a 4.875 - 1 Ratio. Good ratio for Rallying, Club Dirt stuff etc!!!! I measured backing plate to backing plate and it was 80mm wider than GK Sig rear disc. Unfortunately I didn't have time to get the rear wheels off to measure hub flange - hub flange to get a better idea of where wheels will sit. Does anyone have a Delica or Paj of similar era with disc brake rear end (15" Rims) to get the hub flange to hub flange meausurement? The other option I may explore is 98ish Challenger (depends on width again) cause some of those ran factory LSD and disc rear end. For those who want to keep it Mits, these may be some possibilities with soem more research.
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways - beer in one hand, smoke in the other - body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming -WOO HOO! What a Ride!"
locostbryan
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:51 am

Re: LSD

Post by locostbryan »

locostbryan wrote:I have seen a post on another forum, claiming that a BorgWarner LSD was standard in the Sigma Turbo and "anything with a tow pack option". Also claimed Sigma axles are same diameter as Falcon 6 25-spline axles, but the splines themselves are a smaller diameter.

iirc the Falcon has a model 78 diff, and the Sigma a model 70.

Was the poster talking bollocks?
I found the Timken online bearing catalogue, and it lists two bearing codes for Borg Warner equipped cars. Part #2742 for "small" cars like the Corolla and Datsun 1200 and 4-cylinder Toranas (up to LJ), and part #2769 for the Sigma, Corona, Falcon, and Commodore. Presumably the bearings are different sizes, and would be bigger/stronger for the heavier and more powerful cars? Would they also have got stronger axles?

A US Chevy forum referred to the Borg Warner diff as the "9-bolt", and claimed there were two sizes of crownwheel (without giving dimensions) - one size for 2.77 to 3.08, and another size for 3.23 - 4.11 ratios.

There was also reference elsewhere to the BW model number being the crownwheel diameter i.e. 78 for 7.8" and 75 for 7.5". What diameter is the crownwheel in the Sigma?

The implication is that a 25-spline 2-pinion LSD centre from a 6-cylinder Falcon (XA-XF) would fit into any BW78 axle.

Someone from Borg Warner gave me the contact details for their local (Auckland) expert, so I might have to go and have a chat to him.
webby
Posts: 1644
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:38 am
Location: Parkes, NSW

Re: LSD

Post by webby »

I heard EX Lancer GSR and small Starion LSD's will bolt straight into a GJ-onward Scorpion housing? Any truth to that?
-Josh.
Image
Daily: 7/96 EF Falcon, 4.0 SOHC, BTR95LE, 3.45:1 LSD/Lukey extractors, full 2.5” exhaust, EL intake, Tickford snorkel, 87DA cam, AU injectors, shiftkits.com.au single stage kit. PB 14.93@91mph.
Project: Red '81 Scorpion-http://www.sigma-galant.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=11889
User avatar
amgis_obrut
Posts: 1742
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:26 pm
Location: Orient Point NSW

Re: LSD

Post by amgis_obrut »

locostbryan wrote:
locostbryan wrote:I have seen a post on another forum, claiming that a BorgWarner LSD was standard in the Sigma Turbo and "anything with a tow pack option". Also claimed Sigma axles are same diameter as Falcon 6 25-spline axles, but the splines themselves are a smaller diameter.

iirc the Falcon has a model 78 diff, and the Sigma a model 70.

Was the poster talking bollocks?
I found the Timken online bearing catalogue, and it lists two bearing codes for Borg Warner equipped cars. Part #2742 for "small" cars like the Corolla and Datsun 1200 and 4-cylinder Toranas (up to LJ), and part #2769 for the Sigma, Corona, Falcon, and Commodore. Presumably the bearings are different sizes, and would be bigger/stronger for the heavier and more powerful cars? Would they also have got stronger axles?

A US Chevy forum referred to the Borg Warner diff as the "9-bolt", and claimed there were two sizes of crownwheel (without giving dimensions) - one size for 2.77 to 3.08, and another size for 3.23 - 4.11 ratios.

There was also reference elsewhere to the BW model number being the crownwheel diameter i.e. 78 for 7.8" and 75 for 7.5". What diameter is the crownwheel in the Sigma?

The implication is that a 25-spline 2-pinion LSD centre from a 6-cylinder Falcon (XA-XF) would fit into any BW78 axle.

Someone from Borg Warner gave me the contact details for their local (Auckland) expert, so I might have to go and have a chat to him.
BW 78 series diffs with a 2.77 ratio will not accept or interchange with any other 78 series due to the offset on the crown any housing available with any other ratio will interchange

The BW found under a sigma is not a 78 series it is in fact a68 series has an 8 bolt hat and is much smaller than a 78

68 v 78

Image
GH Sigma, 16" Mesh wheels, sports steering wheel and a V8 exhaust
locostbryan
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:51 am

Re: LSD

Post by locostbryan »

amgis_obrut wrote:BW 78 series diffs with a 2.77 ratio will not accept or interchange with any other 78 series due to the offset on the crown any housing available with any other ratio will interchange

The BW found under a sigma is not a 78 series it is in fact a68 series has an 8 bolt hat and is much smaller than a 78

68 v 78

Image
Wow, that's a big difference :o .

From what I can determine, BW made two series of diffs from the early 60s - the 60/68 for small cars and the 70/75/78 for big cars. The Timken catalogue seems to tie in with that, with one wheel bearing code for most 4-cylinder applications and another wheel bearing code for most 6-cylinder codes. They list the small bearing for the Galant and the large bearing for the Sigma. Whether the bearing relates to the axle diameter, or the model of diff is unclear.

At least Ford bolted a useful tag onto their axles :D e.g. "P/N 78DA-4005-MA Ratio 2.77 Ser No 5013". Is there one on the Sigma diff? :\

Mind you, even Spicer Axle (aka Borg Warner) sound confused, as their website states "In 1963, the company unveiled two generic rear axle assemblies, the Model 70 and 78, which, with modifications, would suit a wide range of Australian made cars." But small cars like the Datsun 1200 and Leyland Marina had the model 60 or 68. Only the 78 seems to have had the LSD option, in either 25 spline 2-pinion (most 6s) or 28-spline 4-pinion (most V8s). Only 28-spline from about 1989 (EA Falcon and VN Commodore).

Measuring off the pics on the Datsun 1200 site, the 1200 model 60 looks to be about 6", and 120Y model 68 would be about 6.8", but the Skyline model 78 would measure about 8.5" :o . Plenty of other websites claim the BW number is the crownwheel diameter in inches, so the photos must just be deceptive.
locostbryan
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:51 am

Re: LSD

Post by locostbryan »

Have had this statement from a bloke on another forum :-
The LSD that is in the pics is from a "tow pack" optioned Sigma Wagon.The diff that I hunted up for Peter Molesworth was a Turbo Sigma LSD.
The LSDs do exist .Just look up one of the Gregory Car Manual,they get a mention.
Peter Molesworth's former business partner Brian used to work for Mitsubishi & said it was on option on Sigmas.


The Borg Warner LSD from a Sigma wagon is the middle one in these two pics (larger one is Falcon)
Image
Image
Cottees
Admin
Posts: 2424
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 1:40 pm
Location: South Australia

Re: LSD

Post by Cottees »

locostbryan wrote:The LSD that is in the pics is from a "tow pack" optioned Sigma Wagon.


Do you know which model Sigma Wagon had the mentioned 'tow pack'?
User avatar
amgis_obrut
Posts: 1742
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:26 pm
Location: Orient Point NSW

Re: LSD

Post by amgis_obrut »

the hemisphere that is referred to as being an LSD is clearly not an LSD

Its exactly the same as the one in my sigma turbo and it IS NOT an LSD i have had the diff apart completely


I read another post stating the spline sigma axles are the same dia as falcon 25 spline, this again is not true
the sigma axle steps down in size twice from hub to spline the falc axle gently tapers from hub to spline and would be a good 2mm thicker overall

its funny that the LSD would be mentioned in a Gregory's yet was never mentioned in any factory owners manuals or MMC factory workshop manuals (i have/had all the MMC worshop manuals)

I would like to know where you originally got the information so i can join the discussion 8o|
Last edited by amgis_obrut on Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
GH Sigma, 16" Mesh wheels, sports steering wheel and a V8 exhaust
locostbryan
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:51 am

Re: LSD

Post by locostbryan »

The bloke could be talking bollocks. :\

This is how he claimed to have identified the LSD :-
I pulled into a wreckers & had the attendant help check.Lock the tailshaft & move the wheels forward,if it is LSD it will not move either wheel.

Not sure if that's a valid way to check. :think: This is what I had read elsewhere :-
In a traditional "locked" rear differential setup (or with any American-type LSD), you can raise the drive-wheels off of the ground and turn one wheel forward and watch the other wheel turning forward with it and that is one sure-fire way of knowing that you have an LSD in your differential or not!
shuggy
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:35 am
Location: Perth, WA

Re: LSD

Post by shuggy »

not completely true. it could just be a tight open diff

if you raise both off the ground, lock the tailshaft it should be very hard or impossible to turn either of them, sometimes hard only to turn one way. this indicates the clutch on the diff centre is grabbing the other wheel and cannot turn because the tailshaft is locked.
User avatar
amgis_obrut
Posts: 1742
Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 6:26 pm
Location: Orient Point NSW

Re: LSD

Post by amgis_obrut »

I know this works with all the falcon LSD units i have

If you have an axle out (or the entire hemisphere) and you can see the pin that holds the planetary gears in place then its an open wheeler

Note you will see the pin in some clutch type LSD's

Image
GH Sigma, 16" Mesh wheels, sports steering wheel and a V8 exhaust
BAD-SIG
Posts: 520
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:05 am
Location: Ballarat, VIC
Contact:

Re: LSD

Post by BAD-SIG »

Anyone tryed L200 or even Triton diffs? I guess the old L200 ute diffs would be close to the same length as a Sigma one, but the L200s had leaf springs on the rear I think, plus I don't know if they came out with LSD or if there is an LSD available that fits. Has anyone tryed? Also, has anyone looked into the Triton diffs?

And what about the banjo type diffs available on some early model GE Sigmas? I know they are a bit smaller than the GE-GH Scorpions, but are they just as easy to lock as the Scorpion ones? Anyone tryed? Just curious :)
Please click below to visit my blog dedicated to my GE Sigma SE:
http://www.galant-sigma.com

Please click below to visit my cardomain website dedicated to my GE Sigma SE:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/293989

Image
shuggy
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:35 am
Location: Perth, WA

Re: LSD

Post by shuggy »

as far as i know, there is one bolt in 8 bolt diff centre that is lsd, thats the FRONT one out of a 4wd l300 van, not many around though..
locostbryan
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:51 am

Re: LSD

Post by locostbryan »

In NZ, all L300 vans had a LSD as standard from about 2001.Don't know if that would be compatible with a Jap Sigma axle.
User avatar
Rally_2.6LC
Posts: 954
Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:59 am
Location: Either under a car, on the computer or in bed...around Ryde

Re: LSD

Post by Rally_2.6LC »

check that diff size though. because some L300's in Aus have them as well, but they are the larger 10 bolt pajero diff size's which are bigger (as i understand it) to the 10 bolt scorpion. The L300's that came out with the LSD in the front are the first series L300's and are rare as all hell.

Cheers Matt
'75 GC daily (slowly dying)
'80 LC 2.6L rally car (generally something broken until 2 weeks before an event)
'71 GA 2.6 Turbo project (i only wanted the diff and got another project)
^This side up^


Formely "Matt"
Post Reply